FCA wish list

[Sean]

What do you think are the FCA fail points and what are your suggestions to improve.

What do you think the FCA does well.

[Duggernaut]

From what I know of the FCA, it does well at providing for the "recurve target archer". I wish that the FCA would convince the International Olympic Comittee to include compound bows in their events.
As of right now, the only things I need the FCA for is insurance, and an FCA number so that I can compete at one of their tournaments a year.
I would like them to provide more opportunities for us.

[Mikey]

quiet honestly I think the FCA should do more for its athletes period ...not just recurvers like doug says ...

maybe help provide better opportunties for more shooters ... ...
Now before Sean goes off the handle and says "compound archery is not an olympic sport and therefore the feds wont back it blah blah blah ......"

Let me put forth a scenario ..like curling, Freestyle skiing, Baseballl were just made olympic sports recently ...prior to those years their respective sports governing bodies actiovly fundrose ...whether it be selling chocolate covered almonds door to door ...cookie dough ...trinkents ...whatever ... the fact of the matter is they did it.

as a member of the FCA for the last several years I have yet to receive a newsletter, magazine, email or anything even imforming me that the fca actually relies upon any funding other than what the feds give em for an olympic program in fact I have yet to receive any form of media saying what the FCA is up to or even a welcome .... ...so other than making 1 tournament a year ...if I even go to it ...more expensive than most other shoots ...the FCA to me doesnt even exist nor acknoledge my existance

I think a better served question is ...What has the FCA done for the average archer in Canada ???

[acearchery]

The bi-weekly online newsletter is a good thing...
Insurance is a great thing,
Creating a couach program in line with the new Canadian Competency Coaching Certification is advancing and is improving and ahead of many sports.

The organisation can only go as far as volunteers can take it at this point.

It is a circle in order to get funding, there has to be exposure, in order for their to be exposure we have to have archers making podiums, which requires good coaching and a good high performance program which requires a lot of volunteer work and funding. It is a continuous feedback loop.

It comes to each one of us promoting our sport and spending time with the kids!....getting them into it....if we want to see it grow....

How can FCA help.... tapping into NASP programs...etc.....

The biggest drawback of our sport is that those that excel at it have a very independant spirit, are above average intelligence, competitive personalities, and usually are not the type to follow. Look at discussions on here for example.... there are many people able to debate quite intelligently.....

FCA needs to provide good leadership... who are the leaders... US!...

This is only my opinion but we need:

Leadership at the FCA that is ready to take responsibility and go forward... organise.. standardise etc... This is happening with the coach program....

Membership willing to get behind the FCA leadership, provide direction and support through the democratic process. If there is a majority vote on an issue..... then everyone support it in the name of the greater good.... I see in many organisations where there is an 80/20 vote that the 20% **** and moan and do everything they can to sabotage it because it is not their way!.....

Unity is the way to go... Longbowers, Recurvers, Compounders, Crossbowers........... ARE ALL ARCHERS!........... according to Webster!.....Wikipedia etc....

We have a good organisational structure with provinces........ but there is huge differences between the provinces and within the provinces (especially Alberta).... then of course bowhunting issues come in and cloud the whole realm as that is our largest group of archers.... the bowhunters.... many who have no interest in Target or 3D archery...

In Recurve Archery there is not the divisions etc because it is an International Sport!....

In the end I feel we are doomed to fail because of the inherent independance of archery... It is me the archer and the target....

That being said I have seen a major shift in my own thinking and those around me.... In order to be successful requires excellent coaching.....and a good program...

We need to focuse on the coaches, coaching and the program.... but this cannot be done at exclusion of archers..... There is no coach or program without archers.....

We as archers/coaches/parents need to support our FCA coaching program. People who want to and do provide provide archery instruction need to be certified through our National Program.

How many times have we seen well intentioned advice put ourselves and others at a disadvantage due to lack of knowlege, standards, or just individual quirks!....

I have seen people that are good coaches, but have no certification..... teaching archers very well... but this takes away support for our National Program....

I have seen "certified" coaches providing bad advice.... because they were using old information..... This hurts or Program... and is the reason for developing the new program.....

We have all seen the bow salesman at work... nothing more said!...

This is a long post even by AC standards... Sorry!...

There is a National Coaching and Talent recognition program.... I feel we as members need to tap into it, use it, work with it, help it improve and evolve, and support it.

Funding is available for well established programs.... We jast haven't tapped into it yet... until we have a program that is supported....

Look at TimBits Hockey.... whoever thought that non-competitive hockey could have such support.... They had an idea, built a program and then marketed it in conjunction with a Canadian Iconic Business.....

Just my opinions and thoughts!.......

[Mikey]

maybe i am ignorant to the facts ... but many people have said insurance ....but no one has stated what the FCA insurance is good for ... and i really dont know .... If I am at a FCA sactioned event like 3D outdoor champs and I roll my ankle and cant work for a week or so after ... does the FCA cover my lost wages? .... If I am a FCA member and get hurt while bow hunting legally are my lost wages covered? If I am a landowner and a FCA member and a bowhunter "accidently" mistakes one of my Black agnus for an elk .... is that loss covered?
or
does the FCA only cover the host clubs against being sued for a rolled ankle on their course while hosting a FCA event ?

[HOYTarcher]

Get rid of the excellence program, it does nothing but cost archers money, open up trials to everyone not just those that are members of excellence, we'll see more competition and quite possibly improve the level of archery going to world championships.

Something has to be done with coaches and support staff for world championships, we are sending too many support staff that do nothing to support the athlete at world events in many cases. My first worlds were we'll organized by support staff with the athelete coming first. Several support staff had there own agendas at the last junior and senior worlds event.

Coaching certainly has to be improved upon, I wish there was some, maybe we have too look at providing more opportunity to fund seminars such as George Ryals, D. Trillus or D. Cousins and make them more available to a larger number of people.

People who want to and do provide provide archery instruction need to be certified through our National Program I have to disagree with this point from AC. Most of the top instructors are not certified and likely have no ambition to be. As I have heard from several top archers "if you haven't been there and done it how can you coach it".

[Sean]

I have to agree with Kev on the Excellence programe, I have yet to any real benifite other than weeding out those who are not interested but then again if they are not interested they wouldn't show up to the trials.

The support staff for any Fita event make me laugh sometimes,certainly some staff is needed for Fita events but 2 people tops would due, I primarly shoot IFAA events and the archers set up and take care of every aspect with no funding at all and still bring home Gold medals. Many of the top archers there are also the top in Fita events as well, but there is some government over sight that needs to be taken care of for Fita events.

I also agree that coaching is far from what it should be but I feel that is because many archers see little value in coaching beyond the club level. I became a level 2 coach because that was the min requiered in excellence for the archers and the people I coach. I could go far beyond that level but have little interest or incentive to do so. From what I see many top archer have no idea why they are good and many are good because of the close competition they have close by

Fiona is certainly one of the top female archers in Canada but they are few a far between and as she says why should I have to jump through all the hoops and still have to pay my own way, I can shoot against the worlds best with out doing any of that

[acearchery]

I have to disagree with this point from AC. Most of the top instructors are not certified and likely have no ambition to be. As I have heard from several top archers "if you haven't been there and done it how can you coach it".

If you look at my post I do make the same observation about some excellent uncertified coaches.....

It was a long rambling post....

These are the ones that we need to be working on getting certified and having a standardised system with some experience and flexibility because not everything works for an archer.... but it comes down to communication between coaches.....through a structured program that all archers can tap into.....

Then it would mean something to be certiofied... and being certified would mean something!...

I actually agree with you on this... but feel that we need the FCA to actually listen to their membership and get some coaches some knowlege...

Then maybe I would not have to bring GRIV on my own hook!....

We have good archers but how far would any of us have went without good help from somewhere..... and how much sooner could we have gotten to where we are if we had access to that information sooner!.....

"A fool learns from his own mistakes.... a wise man from mistakes of others!"

I feel we have too many geniuses out there who have had some success and have coached some people to success but their knowlege base is limited still.....

"I will never be as smart as all of us!"

I am fortunate to have had good coaches this year to help me with various aspects of my game.

There are form instructors
there are performance coaches
There are encouragers
There is competition
there are mental coaches etc....

Many people who coach have strengths and therefore weaknesses.... having a program that focuses on coache's strengths and having that knowlege available to all coaches helps us build a strong program. It requires communication and innovation, but in a structured organised method.

FCA could provide the structure.... and we could do our part!.....

One last note!.... I have seen some good archers that are terrible coaches... and some mediocre archers that are awesome coaches!.... You do have to know the sport to play, and coach.... One of the best hockey coaches I have seen with Hockey..... never played Pro!...... but he knows how to motivate people!.....

Rats!... another long post!...

[Snipe Show]

For the coaching aspect...I recently suffered a bad case of TP as some of you may have read...I dont know how many CERTIFIED coaches that I talked too and that helped me or rather tryed to help me...They didnt do a damn thing for me or my shooting...I dont know if it was because they are bad coaches or our styles didnt match...Kevin recently helped me out at CAC for a couple of hours...guess what...My TP is completley gone...I am still not shooting as well as I would like but but thats a different thread...I dont believe Kevin is a certified coach but he has been there and done it and he knew what was wrong with me because of experience and how to find it and fix it...So why dosent the FCA work on getting the certified coaches educated enough to teach better? I think it is because you cant really TEACH experience! Just my opinion...

P.S. Why isnt there compound archery in the Olympics yet?

P.S. Thanks to Kevin, Al Obrien and Deano for helping me:D

[acearchery]

I do agree with you Snipe Show....

There are many aspects to being a coach however.... experience is very important.....

Form instruction is only part of being a coach. That being said the folks you mention by name also understand other aspects of the game too.

I want to encourage people like you mention to become certified coaches. There are different levels and since I became a coach I am aware of many other aspects of archery that have helped improve my game.

If I was to mention all the folks who helped me both certified and uncertified....knowingly and unknowingly... good... or bad.... the list would pretty much be the member list of Bowzone...... and more.....

Credentials are important...
Experience is important.....
Knowlege is important..

But put it all together and we have a synergy..... Korea has it figured out.... What are other countries after to get the success of the koreans.... Th archers.... or the coaches!...

I have had an area of my form i was struggling with andjust having another archer who is a natural coach explain things to me in a way that I got it..... paid off dividends immediattely..... Thanks Sniper!......

We need good archer/coaches to get certified to make the certification meaningful..... we also need to make the certification program meaningful using input from these same coaches to make good coaches into great coaches.

Trying to coach yourself is like trying to pick up a bathtub while sitting in it.

What I have seen in the FCA coaching program is good. It can only be made better with good input from our coaches. But the excellent info from an uncertified coach will be unheard because they are not plugged into the system. A coaching Team/program built on mutiple input and experience is what would be ideal.....

I think Kennedy said it best....

"Ask not what your country can do.....

[NockOn]

I agree with Sean and Kevin.....

Get rid fo the excellence program and Rank everyone. Who wants to pay hundreds of dollars to see there name on a list.

I've never been to the worlds or any major tourneys outside this country but I've travel plenty on my own for other things and I think that 1 or 2 support staff should be plenty. I don't think Dietmar benefited from having someone on the sideline. Spend the money on travelling funds for the atletes instead. They're the reason for the sport not the other way around.

One more point and this one might have to do with the constitution or by-laws but why is it that archers can't pick who the directors are? I remember in Sherbrooke when a bunch of archers showed up to give their support to Ed Wilson to find out they couldn't vote. Everyone but the Exec got booted out during the vote. It was probably the first time in FCA history that archers cared who was voted in.....

That's my 2 cents

Claude

[Al Jenskey]

From what I know of the FCA, it does well at providing for the "recurve target archer". I wish that the FCA would convince the International Olympic Comittee to include compound bows in their events.
As of right now, the only things I need the FCA for is insurance, and an FCA number so that I can compete at one of their tournaments a year.
I would like them to provide more opportunities for us.

Hi all,

I'll try to weed through this thread and see if I can answer any of the concerns being brought up. Forgive me if I don't know who you are or what you all shoot as I am new to this board.....

As for me I am on the High Performance Committee and act as the Chairman and also am responsible for Doping Control Education.

Anyway, Douger the FCA is not in a position to lobby the IOC for anything. The rules of Olympic archery are the responsibility of FITA so the FCA has no influence on the IOC directly - only as one member nation of FITA.

The subject of compounds in the Olympics has been beaten to death on just about every archery board I know. As I understand it the IOC has said the only way this could happen would be for archery to leave the Olympics, and apply again as if it were a "new" sport. I don't think FITA is in any hurry to do this since the general feeling is we would not get back in with any equipment division.

Douger - you ask for "more opportunities for us" but I don't know who "us" is - are you compound? 3D?

I can't speak for 3D but there are only 2 tournaments that the FCA sends teams to that would not include compound target archers - the Olympics and the Pan Am Games. Compounds are not allowed in either of these events so this has nothing to do with the FCA. So other than those 2 events compound archers have the same opportunities that reurve archers do.

Anyway, if you need further clarification let me know. I will try to answer more issues as I have time to.

Thanks.

Al Jenskey

[Duggernaut]

Thanks for your reply Al. I guess by what I mean by "more opportunities" is acctually a type of progression avenue for developing archers. For example, if I, as a compound 3D and target archer, would want to start competing internationally, what routes should I be taking through the FCA? What can the FCA offer and how does one go about qualifying for any offerings? This type of information would be very valuable for many archers including myself. Like I've stated earlier, My only dealings with the FCA is to get a number so that I can compete at the 3D nationals. I would just like to know what else there is and how to find out that information?

Does that make sense?

[Al Jenskey]

Thanks for your reply Al. I guess by what I mean by "more opportunities" is acctually a type of progression avenue for developing archers. For example, if I, as a compound 3D and target archer, would want to start competing internationally, what routes should I be taking through the FCA? What can the FCA offer and how does one go about qualifying for any offerings? This type of information would be very valuable for many archers including myself. Like I've stated earlier, My only dealings with the FCA is to get a number so that I can compete at the 3D nationals. I would just like to know what else there is and how to find out that information?

Does that make sense?

Ah - okay now I understand what you mean. This goes right to the nature of how archery (as a sport) operates compared to other sports. We are a club based sport, rather than being a school or league based one, so unlike other sports that have a natural sort of flow to the progression, we don't have such a thing.

Right now we rely on individual coaches to bring their own archers along, but that is changing (I hope) as we go through something called the Long Term Athlete Development Model (LTADM for short!). The goal here is to develop the sort of progression plan you are referring to for all aspects of the sport - competitive, and recreational. The FCA has been working with a consultant to assist us through this process (it's a mandatory that all sports funded by the federal government will go through I believe). I was involved in one weekend of meetings but was not invited to the second, so I am not as close to the process as I could be to give you an update where it stands. Here is the web page from the FCA site outlining the program....

http://www.fca.ca/LTADM/ltadm.htm

Now as for what is available right this minute, we have difficulties as a national organization getting all the PSO's to agree on some things. For example I know when I was a junior archer in the 70's and early 80's in Ontario we had something called the Junior Olympic Program to move people along, and the FCA has CanBow now but I don't think all provinces use this system.

For adults I think people are more on their own, working with a personal coach as I noted above. Hopefully this will change when we are able to move forward with implementing the things developed with the LTAD system.

For me personally how I progressed when I was shooting competitively was decided by myself and my coach. She had a plan for me that helped me progress from competitions at certain levels up to higher level events.

Anyway, hope this helps.

Thanks, Al

[Al Jenskey]

quiet honestly I think the FCA should do more for its athletes period ...not just recurvers like doug says ...

maybe help provide better opportunties for more shooters ... ...
Now before Sean goes off the handle and says "compound archery is not an olympic sport and therefore the feds wont back it blah blah blah ......"

Let me put forth a scenario ..like curling, Freestyle skiing, Baseballl were just made olympic sports recently ...prior to those years their respective sports governing bodies actiovly fundrose ...whether it be selling chocolate covered almonds door to door ...cookie dough ...trinkents ...whatever ... the fact of the matter is they did it.

as a member of the FCA for the last several years I have yet to receive a newsletter, magazine, email or anything even imforming me that the fca actually relies upon any funding other than what the feds give em for an olympic program in fact I have yet to receive any form of media saying what the FCA is up to or even a welcome .... ...so other than making 1 tournament a year ...if I even go to it ...more expensive than most other shoots ...the FCA to me doesnt even exist nor acknoledge my existance

I think a better served question is ...What has the FCA done for the average archer in Canada ???

Hello - I think you make some valid points, but I also think that there are some misconceptions in your post.

First off as others have noted in this thread.....all of us who are members are the FCA. I don't know how many here know this, but the FCA hs one paid employee - everything else is done by volunteers. So on the subject of fundraising, I agree completely that more can be done, but who will do it?

The FCA has a VP of marketing, so I would encourage you to contact him and give him your ideas on what could be done to raise money. According to the FCA directory his name is Derek Hird. Possibly you could organize a fund raising drive in your area and Derek can assist?

BTW there is one fund rasising item that the FCA is doing this year, and that is the archery calendars. I would encourage you to check them out and buy one if you can.

Now for FCA funding in general, there are two sources of funds:

1/ The government

2/ Other

The government funds by law can't be spent in certain areas, so they must go towards Olympic/Paralympic archery.

The other funds are raised through memberships, sales of cloting, target faces, tournament registrations, Excellence fees, calendar sales, etc. These are funds the FCA can basically spend any way it sees fit.

As for what goes back to archers, I can't say what that number is off the top of my head, but I am working to create a chart of where the money comes from and where it goes to. This is to address the specific issue of "recurve v. compound" funding that comes up on various boards quite often.

But for those who maintain we "just" fund recurve archers, that's not really true.

What I can tell you is that all archers who make a team typically get funding of some sort or another. As a matter of policy the FCA covers the entry fee for all competitors who make a team, and I know we try to cover ground transporation if not covered by the host committee. What often gets people worked up is that when the funding for an event is stated in the event information, sometimes only recurve arches appear to get funded. This is because we typically know up front how much money we get from the government, so can divide it up between the events we send teams to. For the compound archers, the funding comes from general FCA funds that are not always certain at the time we publish the information, so there is usually a line in there to compound archers to save your receipts so that funding can be sent once we know what we have (after the event usually).

Now I'm not saying this covers all cases, but certainly that is the general idea of what I have seen on my time as an HPC member.

Anyway, enough typing for today.

Hope this helps.

Al

[Al Jenskey]

Get rid of the excellence program, it does nothing but cost archers money, open up trials to everyone not just those that are members of excellence, we'll see more competition and quite possibly improve the level of archery going to world championships.


Hello,

Okay one more post today……I wanted to address the issue of the Excellence program. I can’t say for sure what the outcome will be, but the Excellence program is currently under review, and all options are on the table. We have already said that we will look into doing away with this program completely, but as much as people hate it, it does serve some functions. But those are minor compared to the issue of cost for most archers it seems, so I’ll try to give some perspective on that.

Now I know everyone squawks at the fee, but let’s put that fee into perspective.

For the Excellence 2008 program, the fee for 4 years was $175 for a senior.

If you make a team, you get a team uniform (track suit) paid for the first time around. To buy this uniform would cost $300, so if you make one team out of 4 years, the Excellence fee pays for itself and more. In addition to the track suit, you get team shirts – I don’t know the cost of those off the top of my head.

In addition, by joining Excellence you get the opportunity to get free equipment through the FCA’s equipment program. Every year we give out quite a few dozen arrows (ACE’s and X10’s) and also some recurve bows from W+W. So again another opportunity to get your fee back and more based on the price of a dozen X10’s!

Now the FCA gets this equipment for free from the generous companies that support Canadian archery, so doing away with Excellence fees and having everyone compete for these arrows/bows would be no cost to the FCA. However the same is not true on the uniforms. In fact, a lot of the money collected via Excellence fees goes to paying for the uniforms -some years it's more than the fees especially the year of a Junior/Cadet world champs since we tend to have a lot of new team members in those years. If we don’t collect fees for Excellence, then we don’t have cash to pay for the uniforms. It’s well established that fundraising is not our strong suit, so some other fee would be required, or each team member would have to buy their own uniform when they make a team.

Again, this is under consideration, and would certainly place more of a burden on a smaller group of archers. So although it might be easy to get rid of Excellence, to say it does nothing I think is not really correct. That does not mean we won’t do away with fees, but obviously it needs to be thought through first.

As far as opening up trials, I have certainly been an advocate of that in terms of score levels anyway. If you look at the qualifying scores required to enter trials, they are all pretty “open” as it stands now.

Coaches – maybe tomorrow I’ll post something.

Cheers, Al

[Duggernaut]

Thank you for sharing Al.

[NockOn]

Now the FCA gets this equipment for free from the generous companies that support Canadian archery, so doing away with Excellence fees and having everyone compete for these arrows/bows would be no cost to the FCA. However the same is not true on the uniforms. In fact, a lot of the money collected via Excellence fees goes to paying for the uniforms -some years it's more than the fees especially the year of a Junior/Cadet world champs since we tend to have a lot of new team members in those years. If we don’t collect fees for Excellence, then we don’t have cash to pay for the uniforms. It’s well established that fundraising is not our strong suit, so some other fee would be required, or each team member would have to buy their own uniform when they make a team.

Cheers, Al

It's easy, don't charge the $175 and if I make the team I'll buy my own track suit. Why should I expect those that already have one pool there money to buy me one? What if I never make the team, what do I get for my $175?

Also looking forward to your post on the need to support staff and coaches.....

Cheers,

[Al Jenskey]

It's easy, don't charge the $175 and if I make the team I'll buy my own track suit. Why should I expect those that already have one pool there money to buy me one? What if I never make the team, what do I get for my $175?

Also looking forward to your post on the need to support staff and coaches.....

Cheers,

Hi NockOn,

Yes, it is "easy" to say we should just do that - and maybe that is what we will do. It's not my decision alone so proposals will be made and votes will be taken to decide what Excellence will look like in the future. Certainly any input I get from this site will be passed on to the group looking at these issues for consideration, and that is one reason I am participating here - efforts in the past to get opinions from archers have not always garnered many responses.

Now specific to this issue - to me personally it makes no sense for a bunch of people to pay for other's uniforms, so I agree with you completely (as one person I know put it, it's sort of like a pyramid scheme where the "lower" archers pay for the "higher" archers :) ). However, the policy was in place long before I was involved, and if you look through this thread and many others like it over the years, there are already a number of voices saying "We jump through hoops to make a team and then have to pay our own way - what crap!" So although you and I might agree that team members should pay for their own uniforms, what I have learned in this volunteer position over the last few years is clear - you can't please everyone, and rarely is there any sort of concensus among archers regarding how things should be done. So as much as I hear the people saying "get rid of the fees" I know there will be consequences for those who make teams and I would not take those concerns lightly.

To be clear I'm not here to defend any position, but to help explain what I see as the reality of how things work in the FCA from my experience, and to get input from people here. I am certainly open to discussion as long as it does not turn ugly (not saying anything remotely like that has happened here yet).

So - thanks for your post.

Coaching...later today if I have time.

Cheers, Al

[acearchery]

Thanks Al...

I am not a member of Excellence and have looked at joining but it does not make sense for me right now. I do not see any ROI.

Look forward to the coaching ideas!...

[NockOn]

Thanks Al for the reply. Like others have said, I've looked at joining before but the question always is: "What's in it for me?" As a low 1300s shooter right now, I'll never make the gold team that's obvious.

If FCA comes up with a way to make it worth my $175 as a bottom feeder I'll consider it. In the meantime I only see this money being a donation to the very elites. I can think of other charities to give my money too:lol:

Cheers,

[Al Jenskey]

Something has to be done with coaches and support staff for world championships, we are sending too many support staff that do nothing to support the athlete at world events in many cases. My first worlds were we'll organized by support staff with the athelete coming first. Several support staff had there own agendas at the last junior and senior worlds event.

Coaching certainly has to be improved upon, I wish there was some, maybe we have too look at providing more opportunity to fund seminars such as George Ryals, D. Trillus or D. Cousins and make them more available to a larger number of people.

I have to disagree with this point from AC. Most of the top instructors are not certified and likely have no ambition to be. As I have heard from several top archers "if you haven't been there and done it how can you coach it".

Hi all,

Coaching….this is a tough one so be patient as this is a long post! So far in this thread I’ve seen a lot of opinions on coaching. Some who think only those who have done it can coach, others think certification is important, others think we have too many coaches at events, and others have issues with the quality of coaching staff. Personally I can’t say any view here is right or wrong, but I can provide some perspective on what is being done with coaching. If you agree or not I can’t control, but I hope at least some of the logic behind some recent decisions will make our intentions clear at least.

So coaching certification – I’ll tackle that one first. Back in the day we had courses that you could go to and when you were done you had a certification level – that did not mean you had any experience or skill at coaching an athlete and moving them forward. To me this is sort of a “book smart” v. “practical application” issue. So when people say that they feel certification is not important, I think I understand where that sentiment comes from. However I’m not sure I agree that it’s all about experience either – with all the science and technology there is in sport these days to rely completely on the “self-taught” approach nationally is certainly risky. In any case, I think there has to be a balance. Now I can’t say that coaching certification is something I have my hands on to a large degree since there is a committee dedicated to that subject that I’m not a part of, so my details might not be 100% but my understanding is that the new NCCP certification system that replaces what we have traditionally used is more of a “hands on, theory, and experience” type of system than we have ever had before. So I believe that this is trying to strike the balance in theory and practical experience that the prior system didn’t always do as well.

Here is the link for more information on how the new system works:

http://www.mts.net/~garrodr/coaching/index_e.htm

You will likely notice that right now the “new” system does not go beyond level 2, and I think there are people involved in trying to get other levels converted to the new system.

Now I don’t know who these top instructors are that are referred to, but IMO if someone wants a personal coach that isn’t certified, that is there own choice. However for national programs or team coaches, there is a minimum certification level required and I support that. Because we can’t know how much everyone who calls themselves a coach or instructor actually knows, we have to have some system to ensure that there is at least a minimum level of knowledge before we put these people in charge of a team for example.

That brings me to a sticky issue…..coaches on teams. So a few years ago it was clear to those on the HPC that in general our international performances were not where we wanted (or needed) them to be. We came up with a plan, and a big part of that plan was related to coaches. So there were a couple primary issues we tried to address, and one of those was that coaches around the country were very much on their own, so once you had your certification there weren’t many resources available to help if you had an issue or question. That’s not to say people didn’t find ways around that, but as a National Federation we wanted to put something in place where coaches had a resource to go to, and if that resource didn’t have an answer they could help find an answer through a national network. So we formed the Regional Coach Council, and recruited some coaches in different areas of the country to act as resources for personal coaches in their respective areas.

So with that being the first big issue the RCC was formed to help address, now comes the second. Looking at who our national team coaches had been over the few years prior to the plan, we realized that those people won’t be around to coach forever. Also, there seemed to be more and more teams that needed coaches and it was clear that the very small number of experienced coaches we had could not possibly cover all these events (as with most in the FCA the coaches are volunteers and have day jobs). So the RCC then became our pool of coaches that we intended to draw upon for leading national teams.

So as with all plans made with the best of intentions, things don’t always go according to plan. So in some ways the RCC has not achieved what we had hoped, and part of the reason (a big part) is that many of the people who agreed to be regional coaches also had other volunteer duties in addition to their day jobs (some ran local clubs, some were presidents of PSO’s, etc.). So the group wasn’t as effective in coming together as we had wanted, even though individuals may have been moving forward in their own area. We have recently made changes to help this situation, by getting an administrator of sorts who will lead the RCC and keep them on track but is not a Regional Coach. My hope is that this structure change will help the group get more accomplished and enable them to reach out more effectively to coaches in their areas, and work toward common goals in a national framework.

So I’ve seen comments about “too many coaches” on teams, and yes, part of this is intentional. In order to get these new Regional Coaches experience in a team environment, we sent them with a more experienced coach on a team to “learn the ropes” so to speak. So for a while we did send more coaches than what would typically be required for a team. We then moved on to have each of these Regional Coaches lead a team on their own. Now to address one comment made by Sean (hi Sean – long time no see – maybe we will cross paths this summer as I hope to be doing a bit of shooting if I can get past some physical issues with my neck – please say hello to Fiona for me). How many coaches are actually “needed” on a team is a matter of opinion, and everyone is certainly entitled to theirs. I agree that if it is a small team, maybe 2 coaches is enough, but for a larger team (say Junior/Cadet World champs for instance) I would not want to send just 2 coaches as those tend to be quite large teams. In many cases other things besides the number of people drive the size of the staff – things like shooting schedules and location of archers on the field can come into play, where a coach might have to cover a huge physical area just to keep tabs on several archers who are all shooting at once at a large venue. So have we have sent more coaches than were absolutely needed? Yes in some cases but now we try to size the staff according to the specific event and the circumstances. And yes, you or others may not need a coach, or don’t want to interact with a coach at an event like this, but others do need the support.

Other things – as much as we can we try to suit the staff to the team and also I like to see specific assignments for coaches based on what their strengths are and what they are comfortable with (i.e. some may know more about compound archery than others for example, and some may work better with younger archers than others). Also, being a national organization we have bilingual teams and therefore need a bilingual coaching staff – in some cases we have to add a coach (nominated and sometimes partially funded by the FTAQ) to meet this requirement.

Now as to the quality of the people we send, we can only consider those who apply for the positions we post, and we try to make the best decision we can based on the information we are given. In fact we have just revised the submission requirements for those who want to be on a team as coach or support staff to include a lot more information than we have required in the past. That was certainly needed.

Now on the RCC in general, we can’t force personal coaches to use the resources we have provided, so the FCA as an entity can only do so much. It’s a partnership and it takes more than just the FCA to make a system like this work. So if any personal coaches are reading this board, I encourage you to contact the Regional Coach in your area and ask them for help, or challenge them to get some resource or information for you – that’s what they are there for.

Also, one thing I think might be an issue is the fear of personal coaches that the Regional coach might try to “take their star athlete away.” That is why the RCC was set-up to assist coaches, and not athletes, because we have no intention of trying to cherry pick athletes – we simply want to provide a resource for coaches who need it.

Okay one last thing before I end this very long post. If anyone has not been satisfied with the actions or style of a coach on a team, please make your feelings known at the time if it’s appropriate (i.e. if the coach is interfering with your performance), and also please remember to fill out the survey that is given to you as that is very important feedback for those who select the coaches on teams. Just so you know, the coach does not see the feedback forms directly, and even the HPC only sees a summary that is prepared by an arm’s length group (the Coaching Committee). Without being there personally, that is the only way we can know if there are issues that need to be addressed.

Anyway, although there aren’t any magic bullets in my post, I hope that helps explain what we are doing and where we are coming from.

Thanks, Al

[Mikey]

Interesting changes to the NCCP ... as its been around for some time prior to 1997 ... I first got NCCP certified level 1 in 1992 (when 3M was a major sponsor of the program) for competive swimming ... I am now level 2 certified , I got lv. certification in 1995 for both 5 pin bowling and Volleyball and then there was 5 levels .... the first 3 were based from local, prvincial, national comptions respectively where as lev 4 and 5 would be geared towards the international level ...ie: a level 5 hockey would be the head coach of our Olympic hockey team where the level 4 would be an assistant etc... just so you the idea ..... Level 2 would take a team to provincial championships etc....

the levels that I completed had book smart theory, basic athelete development ...fairly genaric to all sports , Technical book work...sport specific athlete development and then Practical time ... a required amount of hours actually coaching that must be signed off by an equall or higher ranked coach before you can be certified ....(If I recall right it was 100 hours)

Personally I think the term coach is thrown around alot ... I personally think the current system has taken a backward step from what it was ... but I havent had the time to read into it further at this point ... from the looks of it anyone with a lev 2 is a coaching god .... I am not sure I like that ....

at anyrate this really has nothing to do with the FCA just an observation made by a dude that knew the older NCCP program well

[acearchery]

Al Thanks for the informative post!...

You make as long of a post as another guy on this board named Al!....Congrats!...Yours make way more sense.

As a coach in the new system and working my way up as fast as it is being developed I find it is much more hands on than the previous system.

The points you make are good... some fears/interestes have been addressed.

The fact that you have come on this board... opened it up for discussion... took a few lumps and answered back piece by piece with well thought out and planned responses has earned my respect.

any of the directions you point out were things I did not know were available even though I am a coach and was taught Intermediatte level by the chair of the RCC!.....

Funding alone does not build an athlete development program..... Now that the Canadian Govt is paying $20,000 a medal is not going to improve athletes. It is proper coaching based on scientific proven method developed through experience and innovation.

How far would today's archers be without coaches!.... certified and uncertified.... I am hoping that there is incentive provided for people who want to be coaches to be certifed.

I became a coach to coach other peoples kids so that it may encourage others to be available for mine if they choose archery! and enjoy it along the way. I must say that being a successful athlete and coaching a successful athlete are two completely different things.... but each have rewards and experiences that are unique and rewarding....

Thanks again for the post and keep up the good work!....

[kevin O]

hey all. i see nothing has change around here. :bs::lol: 175 will cover your vegas entry way better time

[efford1]

the fca still recognizes level 3,4,5 of the old system of coaching. new system still in the works.also new assesment of athletes (all levels) not just recurve olympic style shooters, inthe form of long term athlete developement.new info still coming. ed.:thumbsup:

[cdhunter]

something has to be established to attract the youth, kids. six to pre cub more than a pat on the head. Parents pay fca fees for these kids lets do something for them. My daughter and the host club last year thought she was shooting the nationals at the peewee level for spots Imagine our surprise when we were told after the event after all results are posted that sorry you just don't count to bad so sad. We filed an appeal and the fca's view was it wasn't in the best interest of the peewee's to let them shoot the national level. This year she wants to shoot senior womens so she isn't left out.

[acearchery]

After reading the last post I see a very competitive archer. I feel that at the peewee level (under 10) The competition part of the sport should not be emphasized yet. If there is a competitive peewee then they can compete in the pre-cub or cub class. Juniors and under are allowed to move up an age class if they wish to seek more competition.

At the peewee level just having them out shooting arrows and having fun should be the focus.

In other sports emphasizing the competitive part of it at ages below 10 was usually a sign of an extreme sport parent in my experience.


This year she wants to shoot senior womens so she isn't left out.


If this is in fact a peewee this is a completely ridiculous statement. It sounds like its more of what the parent wants!.....

[Mikey]

whwere I agree with most of Allan says ... I firmly beleive he has his head up his ....

If he doesnt realize that some kids out there under the age just wanna compete ... I know first hand .. I was one of them ...My folks never pushed me to do anything ... I wanted to be the fastest .. I wanted to be the best ...

I do agree with the fact the first priority is to have fun ... But I dont agree with the fact of non competive being manditory for under 10 year olds. In my own opinion that idea ranks right up there with the New age idea of babying(ie:tit feeding) your kids untill their an adolecent

[acearchery]

Mikey I realise there are a few competitive type personalities out there.

I am one too.... but we are a minority.

All I am saying is that for someone to want to shoot senior Women's when they are 10 or under is ridiculous.

If A peewee or feels competitive they can shoot in a higher age class and then they gain the competition.

this allows for a class (Peewee) where competiion is not emphasized and is a system for the competitive types to get what they want. I think this is a win/win for all the folks!...

That being said I know we have to recognise the excellence. I think all peewees should get a medal for competing. Pre-cubs should all get a medal for competing and recognise 1,2,3rd in their class.

.....I hate to tell you this Mikey.... You just ain't built for speed!.... :tongue_na

[Mikey]

.....I hate to tell you this Mikey.... You just ain't built for speed!.... :tongue_na


I was ... Still hold some club records to this day ....16 years ago ...

[acearchery]

For what .... fastest hand to mouth with a fork.....

or in a puddin eatin contest?....

Just joking......:tongue_na

People i went to high school with me don't recognise Al the blimp either....

[acearchery]

Recognising Participation and recognising excellence are both important.

Even hockey is starting to get this idea....

In the town you now call home I had a father/coach tell his kid to two hand me across the head because I checked him clean took the puck... fired from blue line and scored.. At the ripe old age of 14. Of course it was worded differently....

We can definitely agree this is severely out of balance......

The focus on winning at young ages is what leads to sore losers!....

you cannot win gracefully until you accept the fact that one may not always win. the best competitor is not always the winner! if each and every child is made to feel that they have done well and were a good competitor That needs to be recognised too!

I know and feel it is my job to coach kids in how to be a good competitor, The win is an added bonus!.

[Mikey]

well Untill the FCA gets hooked up with Tim Hortons ... and creates the Timbit shooters program ...I guess we have all have to use our personal judgement .... My whole point is I doubt that you have ever met cdhunter or his kid so its kinda tough to make a judgement call

[acearchery]

True..... just going by text in their post

I have personal reasons why I don't like the winning at all costs mentality.... Not that that was stated but when recognising winning and competitivenss comes before recognising participation at the entry level...To me is where it starts.

[Mikey]

True..... just going by text in their post



That right there is the biggest problem with the Internet .... so much gets lost in the translation from thoughts to spoken words to text ...

[cdhunter]

After reading the last post I see a very competitive archer. I feel that at the peewee level (under 10) The competition part of the sport should not be emphasized yet. If there is a competitive peewee then they can compete in the pre-cub or cub class. Juniors and under are allowed to move up an age class if they wish to seek more competition.

At the peewee level just having them out shooting arrows and having fun should be the focus.

In other sports emphasizing the competitive part of it at ages below 10 was usually a sign of an extreme sport parent in my experience.



If this is in fact a peewee this is a completely ridiculous statement. It sounds like its more of what the parent wants!.....

After reading the last post I see a very competitive archer. I feel that at the peewee level (under 10) The competition part of the sport should not be emphasized yet. If there is a competitive peewee then they can compete in the pre-cub or cub class. Juniors and under are allowed to move up an age class if they wish to seek more competition.

At the peewee level just having them out shooting arrows and having fun should be the focus.

In other sports emphasizing the competitive part of it at ages below 10 was usually a sign of an extreme sport parent in my experience.



If this is in fact a peewee this is a completely ridiculous statement. It sounds like its more of what the parent wants!.....

Ac I let a few days pass by without responding to your post a) so I could make a intelligent reply not one that comes off as a total knee jerk response and b) I wanted to see how your dialoge with mikey would progress.

you and mikey have quickly headed in the direction that my original post was meant to go we need to develope a way to attract youth at a younger age and hold onto them. If we can all agree, our current membership is made up of primarly hunters converted to target shooters. fact is hunter numbers are declining, therefore so is our largest target group. The next largest group we draw on is youth ages twelve and up. We rely on current youth archers to bring their friends, only problem is that most of todays youth are looking for instant success, and when they don't find it they leave ussually for sports they played in their pre adolesence hockey base ball soccer anything but archery For the record I am a level two hockey coach and familiar with the timbit hockey program and a huge fan of the program as it is layed out. when hockey canada layed out the program they were looking for a way to stop the decline in participation at all levels of youth hockey and what they found was needed was a program that in a NON COMPETITIVE enviroment helped develope the skill and knowledge to play the game and rewarded participation above all else. In archery we have SQUAT to attract and hold our youth. Don't make me laugh and mention Canbow the program as whole is barely recognised across the country, infact the average person hasn't heard about

Whens the last time you attended event that had the youth came first ie. no archers above the age of cub class on a provincial or national scale? Probably never I could even hazard a guess you haven't even done this at club level. We've become so entrenched in rewarding are selves at the junior and senior level, that the lower age classes are truly a second thought. Think about it when the winners of an event are annouced, do we start youngest to oldest, no we start at senior and work our way down. Why cant we organize a national youth shoot similar to the indoor national event that utilizes a multi site format or at outdoor field nationals seeing that it runs for a couple weeks, a national archery camp. Emphasis being on participation rewards being given for participation and self improvement.We cant do this because the FCA is worried about anything but the youth programs.

Now to deal with what I feel is a personel attack of being called an exteme sport parent. First off you don't know me from adam or my own personel beliefs so let me enlighten you.
As I said Earlier I am a Certified level 2 hockey coach, I also played junior hockey till I aged out with no illusions of playing in the NHL. as I aged in the system, I saw and was disgusted with the perversion on the emphasis on success by parents. I played under coaches who emphasis was on respect for the game. our opponents, and our selves. Even at the junior level there was no emphasis on winning but rather on doing our jobs well and ethically correct. As a coach I make my players (I've coached all ages except junior) sign a contract that states any disrespect for opponent, team member,offical and or self is not tolerated and can result in their removal from the team. the contract also states that if they are not performing well in school and hockey is interfering in their academic performance that they will be excused from hockey and any help we the team can provide to help with their academic success will be provided. Explain to me how these statements can come from an exterme sport parent hell bent on winning. On the way to shoots if my daughter ever uttered the words " I can't wait to beat' or " I better shoot a good score this time" I would just turn the jeep around and go home. In sport my beliefs are the respect of all competitors regardless of skill level, not on winning or losing but on participation. My personell best on a 18m fita compound unltd is a 497 inner todate I'm proud of that score because I participated and did not quit or throw a hissy fit.

Last but least my daughters comment. First we do not appreciate how early childern become competitive , how often do we see kindergartens racing to see who's first to touch the door. My daughter who two months prior to nationals was in and out of the hospital with extreme ear and throat inffections. She was not going to be allowed to shoot nationals unless she was caught up at school(she attends french emmersion with only english speaking parents). So after her all her hard work she hears the national results are posted on the fca web site, and is excited to show her friends at school. During computers the teacher helps her find and go onto the fca website, and lo and behold in front of all her friends she discovers she's not listed. At age 8 she now considered the biggest liar in class by her class mates and totally confused. She was there, she went through equipment check, the judges consulted the rule book for target size, even made a ruling on whether or not she had shot an arrow. After the bows string slipped from her fingers while drawing back but the arrow had not crossed the 3m line. She had to submit both her score cards as per the rules, how could she not even be listed as a competitor? Her teacher wondered the same thing as she attended the nationals to support our daughter, her student. My daughter made an extreme comment, at the time to an extreme set of circumstances. My daughter shared the same coach as Candice McIntosh and Doris Jones, been previously taught by Avril Hathwell, all archers that whose results were posted, the only reason she understood was they we're older than she was. She figured as childern due, if I competed with the older people they would have to include ME. Which after all is what every one wants dont they, to be included. Is this not what we hope for in a pee wee program is to include them, honour them as participants.



PS. my wife was extremly upset that you called her an extreme sport parent after her many years as a timbits program soccer coach.

[efford1]

gentlemen and ladies, we as the peaple who participate at these events,should collectivly lobby our provincial fca rep to change who actually gets the recognition at these events.the new fca aim is called the long term athlete developement program.will it work? only if we as the parents/support group for the "minor" archers sticktogether , discuss logically what needs to be done to get these shooters on the horizon/tv screen of the fca so they can be guided to better archery/competitor levels.this needs to start at the grassroots level.our home clubs/shoots, even 3d , not just paper.we can send a message to our younger shooters by our actions that lets them know we need them to continue in archery as a competitor.these archers should actually receive the largest of prizes/ribbons/trophies and have their names inscribed in history at fca headoffice.they need to be supported by the national level system if we are to keep this sport alive.the timbits hockey program is a very good model to emulate.cdhunter, mikey, acarcher ,could you three with your collectiv experiences and training brainstorm and come up with an idea or three to make suggestions to improve the current system,heck maybe change it so that emphasis is shifted to the younger shooters. as an older more mature shooter, i feel i don't need a trophy/ribbon prize, the kids faces show me happiness when thier names are posted/called up to get a prize/ribbon/trophy.we as adults can talk all the smack we want, back it up with our ability,or not,and have a cool one to celebrate/drown our shame.we have already learned to deal with wining/loseing.we want recognition from our competitors that we won/lost/beat them, so do our little ones because that is what they see us doing and want to be/should be treated as equal as competitors. just my 02 . thanks for the space to vent, ed.:286:

[cdhunter]

hey Ed I'm game. I honestly believe that with a stronger youth presence and direction, all we can do is strengthen our sport. Hockey was able to recover due to it's focus on youth and even Hockey Canada acknowledges they are not out of the woods entirely yet. With the release of the new amateur sports channels, tying in with a big sponsor unfortunately is/will be a fact facing amateur sports today. Tim Hortons between timbit hockey and soccer has maxed out it's capability's, however rotten ronnies is always on the look for something new or for that matter subway which tries to promote a healthy life style. Before we can go looking for sponsors we have to have a program in place and fast. Nasp is slowly making it's way across Canada and if we do not have a solid youth program in place to absorb these youth somebody else will and we will end up with to competing archery bodies which will not be good for the sport of Archery in Canada.

[acearchery]

CDhunter thank you for clarifying.

I see where you are coming from now and we actually have many things in common with our background have have made the same observations.

Sarcasm is hard to convey and I now see the point in your first post. (Your daughter competing in Senior Class) I responded as if you were not being sarcastic because in today's world I have seen people where this was not sarcastic but a real sentiment.

Thank you for setting me straight!. I see you are not extreme parents.

Your daughter was not even recognised as a participant! I now see where your previously expressed sentiment came from.

[acearchery]

Yes I am definitely Game!.

To me archery is a family sport. I just got back from an archery shoot where I shot with my 4 year old son.

As i just tucked him in after my last post hegave me a big hug and said... "Thanks Daddy! for taking me" he is asleep right now clutching his medal for participating.

No medal could ever replace the feeling in my heart. I don't know what he shot for score... and it does not matter! I don't even know what I shot for score.... and it does not matter!... of course he is only four, after awhile I want hime to enjoy the competitiveness but not be the only reason for participating!

For me this was not always the case. I was one of those self motivated individual that wanted to win at all costs, when paired with that type of coach in hockey it was downright ugly.

Here is what opened my mind. I even made a highlight video taking out another player in an International tournament who was not used to Northern BC type of hockey, the other player put his head down going into corner around the other defenceman, and I hit him head on with every ounce in my body.... but cleanly.... in the danger zone, 5 feet out from the boards, he fell about 5 feet straight up, landed on both back shoulders and his head bounced off of the boards, and he was convulsing on the ice with a concussion, whiplash, some fractured ribs, and trying to get his wind. As he was laying there convulsing I hollered "Welcome to Canada....expletive" I then saw two ladies stand up in the seats next to the ice... I then said to them something along the same vein.... Turned out they were the players mother and sister..... Do you know how many phone calls I got from family that expressed their disgust.... I saw it was ashamed of my own conduct and could not believe I was such a poor sportsman.

I never cheated, I always was considered a clean player, I hit hard and played with all my heart, but I got so caught up in the competition and heat of the moment...as happens in hockey......I lost the most important gift of sport. RESPECT, for the game, for the opponent, and last of all, myself.

Now you will see where I am coming from. I understand the danger when winning and competition become the only focus. That coach not only condoned such activity, but encouraged it. But the fault was not all with him. It was me!. My parents sure never had anything to do with this and afterwards my Dad, who never came to watch a single game, expressed his disappointment.

That is why if I see something that makes me think competitiveness getting out of balance I react.

[cdhunter]

acarcher,

this is the fear (cdhunter's wife). Thanks for understanding that we as parents are not etreme sports oriented. We enjoy archery as a family and compete as a family. My husband and I are not as active as we were in our younger days and are trying to keep our daughter in the mindset of healthy and active living. However, children easily become discouraged when they are simply not recognized for their efforts. How do you explain to a child that even though they paid an entrance fee, was subjected to an equipment inspection, had the judges refer to the rule book twice (one for target size and one for a dropped arrow) and had to turn their score card in to the FCA for verification, that the FCA will not recognize them as a participant because they are to young. She was embarrassed and hurt and on the verge of giving up archery all together because they said it didn't matter; she is too young therefore they don't consider her to have participated. We, as members of this sport, need to take a stand against wrongdoings such as this and work to provide an atmosphere that is inviting to the youth. We will continue to lose young archers if we do not provide them with an positive and structured atmosphere to learn and feel successful and confident in their abilities.

Thanks for letting us vent. Have a great day filled with 10Xes.

The Fear

[acearchery]

I feel the same as you cdhunter and the fear

A young archer was disrespected. This is not an issue of recognising competitiveness but simply respecting participant by recognising the fact that they participated.

now I am burned up the other way. As a parent, as a competitor, and as a member of the archery community, when we do not recognise those who have competed regardless of age is wrong.

We have to remember that half the fun of organised sport for kids is wearing a uniform. it shows they are part of a tem, a participant and belong....

[cdhunter]

ac rather than highjack this thread why don't we take ed's suggestion and grab mikey and start a new thread related to this topic and get ideas from others. send me a pm and let me know when you want to get started.
cdhunter

[Al Jenskey]

Hello - just thought I would chime in here. Certainly quite unfortunate that this sort of thing happens. I don't know the details of this incident or the reasoning behind it (falls under the domestic umbrella for the FCA) but I'm sure it was quite discouraging.

But on Canbow cdhunter wrote:

"Don't make me laugh and mention Canbow the program as whole is barely recognised across the country, infact the average person hasn't heard about."

True, and quite unfortunate. Certainly Canbow exists, but some provinces seem to have their own thing when it comes to programs like this. I think we need a national system but getting the PSO's to agree on things is sometimes like hearding cats I'm told. :wink:

For instance I know BC has their own program, and I don't believe they use Canbow out there (I may be wrong and if so I hope someone will speak up). It could be that other provinces have different systems too. Now I have no idea why there are these differences - maybe because at the time there wasn't a national system? Again not sure but I do agree that a ntional system is the way to go.

Good to see this sort of discussion here.

Al

[Sean]

The Canbow is a great system, we activly use it in Ontario and have abandoned what we use to have to have a National system similar to Swimming. What is great is that is works for the new shooter as well, now many places have both kids and parents in the same system and it becomes a race to get the next badge. I do wish that the indoor Nationals mimiced it to some degree as far as distances and ages go

[cdhunter]

I admit I was a little hard on Canbow and for those who use it (in Manitoba we have ydp) thats great. There is however no nationally accepted program that if a family moved from one province to another that the archer would be able to continue with the program with out starting over. Even the youth programs that are in existence are not attracting and holding youth this is where the fca is failing Imo . Any other sporting body in this country has a larger youth base than older athletes archery is the absolute oppositeand needs to be addressed.

[efford1]

i n bc we have the jop for now but we are told the fca has a new program coming wich will be instituted nationaly .it is supposed to be a developement system for all levels of archers as well as all shooting styles,{olympic, compound, trad}. so our kids will be able to start at a young age and follow all the way to the international level if they want to.it would require every provincial associations cooperation to institute and may only require a minor change in what/how we already deliver as programs.i feel if there is any way we can get young peaple interested in archeryand challenge them adequetly/appropiatly we may be able to keep them interested in archery till the day they leave this world.just my .02, ed:laugh:just did a search on the bc archery page, found the fca page, shows the ltad stuff there , lots of info about it.seems to indicate starting with coaching peaple at a very young age right thru to old age.go to the fca web page , it was in there that all this is shown. apparently it was developed in 06.when does it come to us? it may indicate but i failed to find dates. i am not puter savy t ask the righ q to get the a. ed.