Scoring Clarification for Red Deer

[kidder17]

Just so that I am clear on this for MOAS in Red Deer this weekend- if you shoot a target and clean miss, you score zero right? :bs:

[scooter]

Just so that I am clear on this for MOAS in Red Deer this weekend- if you shoot a target and clean miss, you score zero right? :bs:
:laugh: I guess it's really not that funny...but funny that you posted this.

It's sad when someone who was respected in the archery circles in Canada pulls a classless move like that. (yes, I know the story and what happened).

[willyqbc]

well come on now...you gotta expand on that ....don't leave us guessing

who..what..where..when...how???

Chris

[FOAM STICKER]

Unbelievable B.S.

[scooter]

Unbelievable B.S.
Just to be clear...this has nothing to do with the MOAS...

[WOOKIE]

Just so that I am clear on this for MOAS in Red Deer this weekend- if you shoot a target and clean miss, you score zero right? :bs:

Ouch! Thats gonna leave a mark!

[foamseeker]

How does the archery community deal with someone like this miss twice still get the gold.
I agree with foam sticker TOTAL B.S!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[willyqbc]

so.....WHAT HAPPENED?????? Someone gonna spill it or do I gotta start knocking heads??? :nutkick:

Chris

[Scar]

I'm as lost as you Willy......

[foamseeker]

A certain individual at nationals claims a pass through on a certain target gets points for his pass through, then (says) he went to the official's gives the points back, ya wright.
Then shoots wrong target in backside claims designated target was blocked shoots anyway get this
gets more points more controversy. Now rumor of protests linger so certain individual tells those directly involved that he went to official's and has him self removed from the shoot all together, so now protests are tabled, now let me tell you there were many Flabbergasted onlookers when said individual shows up for a gold metal. THIS IS ONE GOLD METAL THAT IS DEFINENTLY IN THE WRONG HANDS.
Lots & Lots of B.S.
foamseeker.

(shot arrow is a shot arrow)

[WOOKIE]

so.....WHAT HAPPENED?????? Someone gonna spill it or do I gotta start knocking heads??? :nutkick:

Chris

Chris, Foam Seeker has pretty much detailed two of the incidents that affected medals in BHR, but there was many scoring improprieties in the shoot. The Range Officials, in my opinion, just did not know what they were doing. I have heard stories from several shooters where the TC made a call that did not agree with the FCA rules or the TC told the questioning archer that it was up to the group. How can it be up to the group? They obviously called the TC to make a decision. A very poorly run shoot, that unfortuneatly resulted in a person taking home a gold medal in BHR, that by rights should have been awarded to Kidder17.

[WOOKIE]

How about Quinton Matzner. On Sunday, he shot the wrong bear. I know he was PO'ed, but he took his lumps, went and pulled his arrow and marked a miss on his card. So what, you say?

Quinton would have won gold in BHR if he had shot that 10 on the right bear. $hit happens. Take your lumps, do what is right, and use it for motivation next time.

I know this first hand because he shot the bear, that my group was shooting and broke Ted's arrow in the target.

[acearchery]

From FCA Rules

11.3 Pass-Throughs, Bounce-Outs
11.3.1 To score, arrows must be stuck in the target. Witnessed pass-throughs or bounce-outs, are to be scored as agreed on by the majority of the group, or re-shot before shooters advance to the target. A pass-through is defined as an arrow passing completely through a target, with target
material 360 degrees around the arrow, leaving both an entrance and exit hole.

11.4 Scoring
11.4.1 For all sanctioned FCA shooting events, the scoring is as follows. One arrow is shot per target.
11.4.1.1 X - small circle centred within the ten ring. Approximately 25% of the ten ring will be used. Arrow must at least touch the circle. This
score would reflect X-10 on the scorecard.
11.4.1.2 10 - circle inside vital area. Arrow must at least touch circle.
11.4.1.3 8 - vital area other than the 10 point circle. Arrow must at least touch the vital area line.
11.4.1.4 5 - remainder of the animal touching body colour.
11.4.1.5 0 - a hit in the nose, horn or hoof not touching body colour, hits on a turkey’s foot or a lynx’s paw, any other miss, or glance off.
11.4.1.6 All scoring zones will be used unless otherwise noted at shooting stake.
11.4.1.7 Any arrow released accidentally or deliberately, will be, if not in scoring area of target, scored as 0 (miss). Any arrow, which is
dropped and can be recovered while touching the stake may be re-nocked and re-shot.
11.4.1.8 Targets must be scored by both scorekeepers before arrows are pulled. Early pulled arrows score 0. Repeated offences will result in
the offending shooter being disqualified.
11.4.1.9 An arrow that is embedded into the nock end of an arrow that is embedded in the target will be scored the same as the embedded
arrow.

11.5 Range Layout
11.5.1 [FCA rule] Targets must be placed so that the entire vital areas are open and distinguishable.
[Outdoor only] Pictures of the targets being used at a sanctioned event must be placed at one of the following locations with vital areas
distinguishable:
• At registration,
• At range tents,
• At each shooting stake, or
Copies of the pictures can be passed out to each shooter during registration.

There are two areas in the rules that the group and the TC must know!.... In the first case the majority of the group rules.... 4 people in group 3 must agree!.....including the archer!.... In this case I did hear something the fellow in question said that he did not push the arrow back through animal as it would have ruined fletches?.....would not the be ruined if they passed through already?.....

the other case I wanted to point out is what it says about scoring zones....unless otherwise NOTED at shooting stake.... noted means documentation.... it must be spelled out!....if written then at a national championship it must be bilingual..... having the card under the kill does not count..... it does not take long to draw a line around specified kill!......

My last point is distinguishable....kills.... many times these were hidden in shadows and could barely distinguish animal... never mind the kills!

If they think they had problems getting shooters this year!...... Imagine next time!..... I know for sure I will never attend another 3D in Manitoba....

This event reflects badly on the host club, ABAM, for allowing such a poorly organised event..... poorly trained "judges" i am sure they are not accredited even as a club judge....and the FCA..... I think Tourney organisers have a duty to attend the previous nationals to see how it was run and see what works and what does not and also recieve feedback from the previous year to see what did not work. There are people unfortunately who used the poor organisation and lack of communication to their advantage..... and there was no recourse for archers because the folks the went to.... KNEW LESS ABOUT THE RULES THAN THE ARCHER DID!....

In any other sport this would not be tolerated....condoned or allowed....at a NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP.....

I have hosted events,m organised events, so I have never complained publicly about an event because it hurts our sport and makes it hard for people to volunteer. This event I cannot do any more damage than they have done!..... When hosting an event i have had people come up to me with valid concerns that are rectified ASAP..... and definitely noted for next shoot. Of course there are some invalid concerns (whines).

I see many VALID concerns..... Now everything I have read regarding the BHR GOLD is hearsay for ME as I did not witness it....HOWEVER.... Even though all the protest have expired if There is another informal route...... I believe the shooter you are talking about is "sponsored"..... HMMMMM!..... The controversy alone is bad advertising....... Is this what we want for a role model for that company.....?

Now to take a positive note...... next national Host..... you can do much better and to summarise the areas of improvement!.... others let's add to this list.....

1) Follow the FCA Guidelines on no less than 2 animals per station

2) Do not use ground blinds..... very awkward for some shooters... cannot kneel on Right knee due to injury... long stab's etc.

3) Communication: Have a PA system that can be understood

4) Ensure all "judges" are certified and know the rules!

5) Designate kill zones at stake!....

6) Do not put animals in Dark!.... ensure animal is distinguishable.... The grizzly bear was in a position where if hunting I would not shoot as it was before "legal" light....

7) Post scores on paper in more than one location or have a score board.....

8) When laying out schedule.... make sure it is followed.... i was guaranteed when i pre-registered that event would be completed by 2:00.... So i could catch plane.... if I did not have that guarantee i was not coming.... On Sunday first arrow was supposed to be 9:30.... this was delayed.... then delayed again and we started at 10:15..... We finished that round at 12:45.... 2 and 1/2 hours.....

9) Use space more wisely:..... The shooting lines were squashed together and very cramped

10) Safety.... having shooting lanes at adjacent station crossing each other.... dangerous.... also added to time because of having to wait for person next to you to shoot....

11) Practice Range.... Dangerous...... and Cramped at the 20!....

12) Equipment Check.... tying the scale to a pillar and pulling bow sideways.... very dangerous one bow at least needed repair.... This is a very unsafe practice.... If rope breaks or bow fails.... energy is projected laterally in any random direction....

There are a few others.... If people add or revise my list accordingly and i will submit to FCA 3D director...... not to castigate the host.... that has already been done but to improve the quality of our next National Tournament!.....

[ACC3-28]

I agree 100% with everything said on this thread so far except for one thing. I think that everyone should keep in mind that this is only one of the National events Manitoba has hosted since the nationals has been around. In 2001 Winnipeg River archers hosted the outdoor nationals at Birds Hill Park and everything went off without a hitch, the only bad thing at that shoot was the mosquitoes and the heat. In earlier years Dauphin hosted the tournament and that shoot was great too. Dauphin archers will be getting the outdoor nationals again in 2008 and are already making preparations to have their event become another success. I have attended many of the shoots this club has hosted over the past 8 years or so, and this is the one tournament I myself and everyone else in Manitoba look forward to every year. This club has a beautiful location and a group of guys who KNOW EXACTLY WHAT THEY ARE DOING. There will be 3 national tournaments in manitoba over the next 3 years weather they be 3D or Fita so please don't let this one event be the one everyone bases their opinions of manitoba tournaments on.

[WOOKIE]

I agree 100% with everything said on this thread so far except for one thing. I think that everyone should keep in mind that this is only one of the National events Manitoba has hosted since the nationals has been around. In 2001 Winnipeg River archers hosted the outdoor nationals at Birds Hill Park and everything went off without a hitch, the only bad thing at that shoot was the mosquitoes and the heat. In earlier years Dauphin hosted the tournament and that shoot was great too. Dauphin archers will be getting the outdoor nationals again in 2008 and are already making preparations to have their event become another success. I have attended many of the shoots this club has hosted over the past 8 years or so, and this is the one tournament I myself and everyone else in Manitoba look forward to every year. This club has a beautiful location and a group of guys who KNOW EXACTLY WHAT THEY ARE DOING. There will be 3 national tournaments in manitoba over the next 3 years weather they be 3D or Fita so please don't let this one event be the one everyone bases their opinions of manitoba tournaments on.

Great post Derek. I guess the moral of the story on many different levels is, "Don't let the actions of one ruin it for everyone"

[Travski]

Good point Derek. Sometimes things will not go as planned with one club. Donot judge everyone from one clubs mistakes. If the other clubs look at the ones mistakes and learns from them, there will be less mistakes the next time. Everyone is not perfect there will be something that could have been done better no matter what club or province hosted it.

just my 2 cents

Travis

[foamseeker]

Don't misunderstand I make no derogatory comments about hosting club.

Regards foamseeker.

(a shot arrow is a shot arrow)

[acearchery]

Derek, I stand corrected..... and will clarify.....

"I have attended many of the shoots this club has hosted over the past 8 years or so, and this is the one tournament I myself and everyone else in Manitoba look forward to every year. This club has a beautiful location and a group of guys who KNOW EXACTLY WHAT THEY ARE DOING. There will be 3 national tournaments in manitoba over the next 3 years weather they be 3D or Fita so please don't let this one event be the one everyone bases their opinions of manitoba tournaments on."Thanks Derek!.....

This was my first Manitoba shoot!.... Many of us spent serious coin to attend....
This was worst shoot I ever attended......I did put the inflammatory statement out there about not going to manitoba for a shoot..... to see if anybody from manitoba would stick up for their home province...and their 3D shoots.... Good to hear that this was far below Par...... I hope to go to Manitoba again to check it out.... just don't want it to be a farce again!.....

This shoot was endorsed, and sanctioned by host club, ABAM, and FCA.....
This reflects badly on everyone....... ABAM and FCA are not off of the hook because it is their responsibility to ensure that the standards are kept and adhered to..... I think it is FCA's duty to ensure that club credentials are looked at prior to award and ask a few fundamental questions..... such as has club hosted similar events in past.... how are they run.... Not saying it has to be like the IOC..... but there should be some background....

When our company (me) hires an idiot.....we do not blame the idiot..... That's what he is... he can't help it...... the responsibility is with the dummy (me)that hired him!......or the goof that hired the dummy (me)........ Do you think I am selective in our hiring process?..... do i look at credentials and background.....

When i look at how the two prvios nationals were run..... no comparison..... regina shoot was good and Med hat.....WAS Excellent..... very well organised.....fun....

As for mistakes.... Yes that is how we learn.... but we should learn from our first mistake....or even better the mistakes of others.... Or yet again....EVEN Better.... Learn from other's successes and replicate it.... That is how the FCA National 3D Indoor Tornament guidelines were created...These were not followed.... specifically...."No less than 2 animals per station for Indoor 3D nationals."..... read it for yourself and look how many of these were ignored!.....

The host club did not follow that or other standard practices.......

the excuse that this is their first nationals.... Does not hold water with me..... The recommendations that I have made.... apply to all tourneys.... Perhaps they should have hosted some smaller events first.... to get feet wet....

I will use Wookie's quote:....

"Don't let actions of one ruin it for everyone".... Very true...... We are in reactive mode.....

Too bad this was not done in proactive mode prior to shoot for host club to get input from those who have done this before!..... Then this would ensure that the actions of one.....did not have a chance to ruin it.

[willyqbc]

Well congrats then to Warren, Kevin ( YAY B.C.!!!) and Rob for their truely well deserved podium finishes! Congratulations guys!

Chris

[ACC3-28]

Ya, way to go Warren. I think thats your first one if I'm not mistaken. Kevin, now theres a man who's always in the hunt. :thumbsup:

[Travski]

yes congrats to the real winners. You did your province's proud.

Travis

[Scar]

Some great discussion guys, hopefully this info gets picked up by alot of clubs to reduce the chance of similar mistakes happening elsewhere.

Couple of questions.

Concerning this rule
11.5.1 [FCA rule] Targets must be placed so that the entire vital areas are open and distinguishable.

I'm not sure what they mean by vitals are distinguishable, I've been at alot of well run shoots where there are targets where I can't make out the vitals even with binoculars. Not a fault of the shoot, just some targets especially black ones can be very tough to see rings on. Also what does distinguishable mean? Naked eye, standard Binos, or with 8.5x svarskies (I know I butchered that spelling). Or does it just mean that the vitals are in line of sight, whether you can actually see them or not you could with good enough optics, ie spotting scope.

Also how do you get to be a certified judge.

[ACC3-28]

All that is required by this rule is that there is a clear line of sight to the vitals region (being the 8,10, and x area). It is irrelevant weather or not the vitals are shadowed and cannot be seen by the naked eye or with high powered binoculars.

[acearchery]

11.5.1 [FCA rule] Targets must be placed so that the entire vital areas are open and distinguishable.

Your interpretation is fulfilled by word open..... why add the word distinguishable unless it meant something more.....

dis·tin·guish (dĭ-stĭng'gwĭsh)

v., -guished, -guish·ing, -guish·es.

v.tr.
To perceive as being different or distinct.
To perceive distinctly; discern: distinguished the masts of ships on the horizon.
To make noticeable or different; set apart.
To cause (oneself) to be eminent or recognized: They have distinguished themselves as dedicated social workers

I do not believe the discussed target met the definition of the rule.... It does say vital area.... what must it be distuingishable from?.... the rest of the animal? the background.... That target met neither for my eyes?..... It may be different for yours as I took a five in the throat where you took at least a 10.....

My interpretation is that one should be able to see the vital area..(Front Chest)... I could not..... I could only see a paw.... and the mouth.... Now I knew that the kill was on the chest.... You look at picture and you could not see anything on picture to disitinguish aiming point.... A brand new archer would have very little idea where to shoot animal....

I am not saying that one has to see rings.... one just has to see surface of animal to figure out where kill is in relation to parts that can be seen.... then this makes the kill distinguishable.... I could not see surface of chest!.....

If you cannot see it...... then it is not distinguishable.... right?... the whole point of camo is to prevent distinguishment...?

All it needed was the light by the wall turned toward the animal and then it would have been cool..... I liked the way the shot was set up.... just don't like condoning taking blind shoots.....I would hate to hit something in the guts!!!!

At the end of the day it is the same for everybody..... Whether I missed or hit and you missed or hit ..... was it luck?..... well.... I have never achieved the level of archery you have.... you got a 10....at least.... I got a nickel..... Definitiely not luck!...... Well Done!....

Just for improvement I think it could be done better that is all.... I am not looking for perfection.... but improvement.... There were many small things that added up to create an experience that was not as enjoyable as I hoped.....

[willyqbc]

all that is meant and all that can be meant by the rule is that their be a clear line of sight to the vitals and that the lines not be so mangled that you cannot score them. There are many times when those with better eyes than me can distinguish the rings from the stake while I cannot...does that mean the target doesn't meet the requirement?? Of course not...you cannot account for the differences in peoples eyesight, nor should you have to.

Chris

[acearchery]

Good point.... It does not say open and distinguishable from shooting stake does it!....

Yet another interpretation!.....
WQBC while you were posting I was editing my last post for clarification on this idea!...

[ACC3-28]

I agree it was a dark target, but it wasn't an illegal target. That target was no different than that little SOB'n black bear at the worlds them guys love to stick in the black hole of the bush and then have the shooters stand in the blinding sun to make the shot at 47 yards. You may not agree it was a good shot because that kind of shot you may have not seen before, but I have seen that type of set up at many national and world championships before so if the big boys are doing it, it must be okay. My advise is to just chalk that one up as a learning experience and expect to see something like that somewhere again.

[acearchery]

If it was protested... it is a grey area according to the rules..... practicality.... everyone had the same shot..... This was Nationals and difficulty needs to be up there.... I liked the shot.... just looking at things from different perspectives.... There were still many new shooters at this shoot!.....

It was a borderline target.... not illegal.... but in the black holes... should at least be able to see outline of animal.... In this case I could not....I have shot many of the black hole hanimals and in particular I remember a boar where the kill was repaired and moved way low..... All we could see was outline of animal..... not an illegal target.... It was impossible to see rings..... when I looked at picture I could see kill was low and shot it low.... arrow looked like a nickel..... Everybody else aimed 3-4" higher.... they ended up being nickels.... Animal was also tilted forward.... Nothing wrong with this shot..... But I could see whole animal and picture helped.... the only excuse the people who missed had was.... they did not look at picture.... now don't get me wrong I liked the shot!...even though I did not shoot it the way I liked.... but I also look at things from a few perspectives such as!....

Now picture a new 3D'r and good hunter.... good shot.... coming to first 3D shoot.... Is this going to make this person happy.... will they return to our sport..... who knows!.... The way I look at it.... I always set a course.... my motto is easy to get a 5, hard to get a 10....and tailor it to shooters.... hunting crowd... make hunting shots... where kil zones are representative of real life situations....(No severe angles unless kill is representative) This includes the black hole shots but if you shoot it where you would when haunting you can be reasonably sure of at least an 8..... At the stake have a picture of the whole animal with 10x marked clearly.... This helps with the black hole shots to level the field!......

There may be a few clean rounds where it comes down to X's.... I think this adds pressure and drama for the top dogs..... But the newer folks have good scores as well and it keeps them in the game....and there is no room for protest.... More people have fun and keep coming out to our sport..... In the long run this creates more recognition and opportunity for our sport..... and lowers the number of protests....BS.....and cheaters!.......

[WOOKIE]

If it was protested... it is a grey area according to the rules..... practicality.... everyone had the same shot..... This was Nationals and difficulty needs to be up there.... I liked the shot.... just looking at things from different perspectives.... There were still many new shooters at this shoot!.....

It was a borderline target.... not illegal.... but in the black holes... should at least be able to see outline of animal.... In this case I could not....I have shot many of the black hole hanimals and in particular I remember a boar where the kill was repaired and moved way low..... All we could see was outline of animal..... not an illegal target.... It was impossible to see rings..... when I looked at picture I could see kill was low and shot it low.... arrow looked like a nickel..... Everybody else aimed 3-4" higher.... they ended up being nickels.... Animal was also tilted forward.... Nothing wrong with this shot..... But I could see whole animal and picture helped.... the only excuse the people who missed had was.... they did not look at picture.... now don't get me wrong I liked the shot!...even though I did not shoot it the way I liked.... but I also look at things from a few perspectives such as!....

Now picture a new 3D'r and good hunter.... good shot.... coming to first 3D shoot.... Is this going to make this person happy.... will they return to our sport..... who knows!.... The way I look at it.... I always set a course.... my motto is easy to get a 5, hard to get a 10....and tailor it to shooters.... hunting crowd... make hunting shots... where kil zones are representative of real life situations....(No severe angles unless kill is representative) This includes the black hole shots but if you shoot it where you would when haunting you can be reasonably sure of at least an 8..... At the stake have a picture of the whole animal with 10x marked clearly.... This helps with the black hole shots to level the field!......

There may be a few clean rounds where it comes down to X's.... I think this adds pressure and drama for the top dogs..... But the newer folks have good scores as well and it keeps them in the game....and there is no room for protest.... More people have fun and keep coming out to our sport..... In the long run this creates more recognition and opportunity for our sport..... and lowers the number of protests....BS.....and cheaters!.......

How could you even think that the placement of the Grizzly target in Winnipeg was protestable? The rings were not obscured in any way. Last I checked, there was no FCA rules about lighting on a target.

Personally, I thought it was a great setup for a shot. My group did not have the pleasure of checking out the Grizzly while scoring other targets on the course as we shot it as our first target on that course.

My whole group did shoot nickels, because of misestimated yardage, but I knew where the rings were due to familarization with the target. You could distinguish his paw and the light colored collar on his neck with the naked eye from the stake. Yes you had to body shoot him, especially if you were using a lens, but the shot was makeable for beginner and old salt alike.

Personally I thought this particular shot was great. If we made all shots for beginners, then we would end up having 17 people tied for gold on x's in each class. This was a National Event. The shots are supposed to be hard.

[Dillershortbow]

I wonder if it is going to be worth it winning a gold metal like that. If he comes to the MOAS on the weekend is anyone going to shake his hand and say good job. Trading the respect of your peers for a gold metal not worth it.----- The rules say a clear path to the vitauls whats clear for somene like wooke isn`t clear for someone verticly challenged like me .

[HOYTarcher]

I'm going to give a slightly different perspective from someone who used to shoot alot of 3D, even managed a couple of national medals, but have given it up for the most part.

When I first started 3D shooting, back in the 80s, I loved walking up to a target and going HOLY SH*T am I going to hit that thing. Targets were out there, hidden in holes, behind brush-where you really had to look for a hole and know your bows trajectory. 60 even 70 yards were not unheard of. Seemed like there was evne less complaining then, but maybe I just remember the good stuff. Now we want the whole animal outlined under a spot light, broadside under 40 yards. Seems like some of the challenge is gone other than making a good shot. Quartering shots are part of the 3D game, having more representative kills would be great, but for the most part these targets don't exist so we learn how to shoot them and have a great advantage over those that haven't learned how!

I know, you still have to know were to aim, but to me some of what made it like hunting is gone, and that is what I enjoyed. I realize I'll still likely never shoot a clean course, but I loved the challenge of the old courses better. Some days you could walk off a 20 target course with a 170 and still be in contention. Everyone missed once in a while and we didn't complain we just took more arrows! Five is your Friend was a slogan when you nickled a target that you thought you'd likely miss. 5s weren't that uncommon, still hated shooting one but they actually were sometimes a good thing.

One of the most talked about and well liked courses at a Canadian Nationals was set by the now Infamous Ed Hlady at nationals in Calgary. People walked off that course licking their wounds but too this day that course is still talked about (and most loved it). It separated the men from the boys and back then I was looking for my arrows in the grass with many of the boys.

Just wanted to add this - some of those shots are just too long for hunting situations but one thing you learned quickly shooting out to 60 and 70 yards was your limitations and I'd rather learn my limitations shooting a 5 on a foam target than an animal in the guts. :ohmy:

[willyqbc]

Kevin, I couldn't agree with you more....that is why our club always sets up an extra set of stakes at our 3d shoots. We put out the regulations stakes but then we add the "extreme" stake and it is not equipment specific....shoot whatever gear you want, man, woman or child don't matter. shots like you describe are the norm. long shots, or shots where you have a 4" hole in the brush to get through.... lots of fun!!

Chris

[acearchery]

Great post MathewsArcher....

The technicalities ruin it..... I learned my lesson and am being way too picky.....

"...but to me some of what made it like hunting is gone, and that is what I enjoyed. "

AMEN........Now I know why I do not get the enjoyment I used to!..... Too technical..... :beer_chee

Oh and russ..... I used an actual ellipsis properly!...... :eek:

As for the original content of this thread..... There is one hour to file protests.....
Question i have is why would you take someones's word that he withdrew from tournament....

Now there is recourse still..... there is no expiry on unsportsmanlike conduct..... If this is what happened... then write a professional "without prejudice" factual letter. Factual meaning no hearsay..... explained best as "what you heard"..... explain what you witnessed firsthand.... make sure it is without prejudice..... means do not lay blame or worry about soultions but outline the facts of the unsportsmanlike conduct....

I know no one wants to be a rat!....or a troublemaker..... but by not taking proper action we are by inaction subliminally condoning this behaviour......... There is a process that ensures fairness.....

Now I am without prejudice entirely in this affair..... but!.... what if he is in fact innocent and this is all the result of a bunch of hearsay and he is being lynched in the court of public opinion?..... Objectively.....Is it possible that there are a few disgruntled people that are raising a stink?...... and the suspect party is in fact innocent?....... It is possible I cannot state a probability because that would be prejudice!...... In every collision there is three stories.... Party 1, Party 2..... and THE TRUTH!..... To find the truth you have to find it in the facts which include the statements of Party 1 and 2...... Even if 1 party is lying by looking at the facts you can ascertain the lies and find the truth in their statement......

That is why the process I have described is necessary and the pricipal people involved need to be contacted and provide the facts...... INCLUDING those that are suspect.... this helps ensure fairness and proper resolution.

Unsportsmanlike conduct is what needs to be investigated here at this point!...........If there is evidence of it then we need to act accordingly..... with a suspension like any other sport.....

[kidder17]

Trust me protests were attempted on both instances and we were told the judges had made the right calls and we should not waste our money.

The "pass through" 10X one is a tough one to argue. One needs to define "witnessed". From the group in question, one guy said he saw it hit the target but could not be sure and the other two said they did not see it pass through but saw the target move- now does that mean it was a 10X- from the way the target was set maybe a 5 or 8 (#6, Course C, small standing bear). Like I said define "witnessed". The judge that was approached regarding protest told me & Rob that if the majority of the group witnessed the score given by the group then that would be the score given and we would be wasting our time protesting. We argued that they "witnessed" the shot but in no way did the majority of the group "witness" a 10X, and when Darcy was asked by Rob what arrow he shot this pass through with, he showed him a arrow that looked brand new with the exception of a slight wave and I mean slight, in the fletch. Mike Morin from our group shot into the bales at the Coyote target from the stand and his fletch were attached but totally @#$%$%.

The clean miss, I still shake my head- Rule 11.4.1.7 Any arrow released accidentally or deliberately, will be, if not in scoring area of target, scored as 0 (miss). Any arrow, which is
dropped and can be recovered while touching the stake may be re-nocked and re-shot. Darcy's argument after the fact was that he could not see the kill zone and for what ever reason the judging commitee let him re-shoot the target. If he could not see the kill then he should not have released his arrow- see 11.4.1.7. Again we were told judges decision on the field was final and a protest would be a waste of time. See Wookie's post previous on this thread here regarding Quinton Matzner, I know he wishes he could re-shoot his missed target.

[acearchery]

Due diligence was not followed by the host shoot in both cases:

I would outline each case seperately in a seperate latter to the FCA 3D director.

The rule that the arrow to be witnessed.... If I was the Fca director and recieved a letter worded like yours and then sent a seperate letter having each archer in the group state what they saw in this case.
Archer 1: Arrow hit the 10x......
Archer 2: Not sure if arrow hit target
Archer 3 and 4: not sure if arrow hit targetbut it moved!.....

Now people could ask if there were any other pass throughs on that target!....... or were "magic" arrows being used.... apparantly the fletches were? I need some of those!....

This discussion would have to happen prior to the arrow being touched. The judge would have to make the call prior to the arrow being touched. If unsure then the arrow could be reshot. However the judges should fall back on the tenet that all arrows are scored a zero until shown otherwise.... this is a valid protest...... Should have carried through with it...

Another avenue is the credentials of the "judges" that told you to save your money and the "line judges" what are their credentials.... If they are not certified to the level they should be at a National event.......There are much larger issues and even more circumspection should be called for.... meaning disputed arrows countzero until proven
otherwise beyond a reasonable doubt....

Case 2 as described is a gross error on part of judges as the only case where an arrow may be reshot is in a pass through situation..... or other extenuating circumstanceas per qualified director of shooting. As an accredited afficial in more than one sport the officials decision is never final if it is not in accordance with the rules..... A question of judgement on officials part is final....eg. was it a strike or a ball.... safe or out....di ball beat runner or vice versa.... THERE ARE NO TIES!..... But if an official is wrong on a matter of rules.... there is no expiry on protest or other action..... because this makes a travesty of the sport...... If this is in fact exactly what happened then you have every reason to take this further and you should..... The RULES supercede the official......in every case.... there is nothing open to judgement or interpretation of the official....

I would love to have my miss back too!....

I will go back to previous statement.......If this is in fact the case.... i have not heard any defense!.... then the archer conducted himself in an unsportsmanlike manner.... the judges were not impartially applying the rules.... the director of shooting allowed this to continue and prejudiced the results by saying the protest would not stand...... How would he know?.... he had not heard it yet.... Process was not followed.... bias... preconcieved ideas.....BULL****!.

I would advise you to press your case with FCA through your provincial representative. Document everything including every conversation and who you spoke with...... Not to get your deserved medal...... But to ensure a potential travesty is investigated with due diligence....and resolved..... This is not about a misawarded medal but the integrity of our sport and association......

And is part of why I will probably be getting out of 3D period.!......

[Knacker]

I heard about this crap on Wednesday at the Calgary 3D league and it is a real @$$kickin'. I have played a few different sports competitively in my life and it is worse when the officials make bad judgements more than when participants do. These are the "gods" of the field and when they don't seem to be honest and trustworthy it makes a person not want to give a damn for their own efforts. I wasn't there so I am relying completly on senior shooters who "know" what they are talking about to build my assumptions. So based on that, I believe it would be beneficial to the sport to deal with this issue and have the medal stripped and the officials suspended for a while. I am not a very liberal person and I believe in making "examples of" in these situations. It always ****ed me off when I recieved penalties for my wrong doings and the refs get off scott free for there mistakes (it's a little too Canadian!!!). I just started this winter shooting 3D and I am going to continue because I have fallen in love with the sport. When I love something I fight for it (i.e., my wife, my family and my team). I hate 0's but I take em', kick myself for it and move on; I expect all others to do the same, no exceptions. Am I a hardliner?, no; I just like discipline, it's what seperates the men from the boys. If you want to tailor your score, do it when it doesn't affect others who payed their dues.

[Mikey]

whoa ..... I wasnt there ....dont know what happend exactly but have heard stories .... do I judge? No ....summer Nats in Lethbridge ya'll remember course "C" ...yea the one kicked the crap outta everyone physically and mentaly ..... it was BHR first course .... My group shot the zone shown at the stake ..... as the animal example ... not really thinkin about the rules stating that any visible zone is scorable unless noted at the stake .... ya'll remember the 6yrd gater? 12 feet below the stake .... the pic at the was the side zone ....had every intention of shooting the side zone .... I had a brain fart (see part of kicking crap outta everyone mentally as it was one of our last targets) seen the x on the back ... I shot the x on the back and actually hit it .... ya know what I scored???? a nickle ...... ya know what it cost me .... a crisp 5 dollar bill to ACarcher because he beat me overall by 2 points on the weekend .... ya know what he shot on that gater ..... an 8 on the side rings .... Am I complainin'? Nope .... I am a man, I lost fair and square . There was a few instances where our not thinking of that particular rule cost us both some points ...that particular target is the only one that I recall however due to my distain of Gaters'. That Crispy couldve gone either way ...who knows .... ...who really cares at the end of the day? thems the scores that 2 people wrote down ....thats why we have double scoring .....

My whole longwinded point is : Why ***** about something that happend in the past ...live for right now ...live for the future .... beat this guy next time out ....I am not saying that that this guy cheated ...because I wasnt there .... but if he did ...and it floats his boat ...so be it ... the people that were there know what happend ....either way Karma is a b i tch it will catch up

[wabbithunter]

Beat him the next time around Bull-S@#$!!!!

Why should Warren,Rob,And Kevin let this slide and get him the next time around.I know this is Warrens post but it still does affect Rob and Kevin.There was a 3 way tie between them x count breaking up the tie of course.I do not remeber who took third between Rob and Kevin ,but because of this pass through one of them fell out of the medals..I know Rob and Warren personally and both are great guys who love this sport as well as Kevin which I do not know.All 3 of guys attend alot of shoots and take pride in there game.why should they drop this.If I was Warren I would be ****ed and definately would be persueing this.

[Mikey]

I gotta say ...someones making a mountain of a molehill ...if the dude truely cheated I would suspect that he wont last long in this game .... I know all 4 of the guys as I have met them all or shot with them ..... they stike me as stand up guys ..... and I gotta ask why they arent posting about it ...oh no I dont ..... because they are bigger than arguing on the internet ...(its like the special olmpics by the way)

I have half a mind to close and lock this thread ..... as personal attacks against anyone will not be tolerated on this site. But against my better judgement I have left it open ....mainly for my own morbid curiosity ......

That Said:
If you have a usefull contributation to this thread then by all means post up ..... if you complain to hear the clicks of yer keyboard ...then dont

Thank you
that is all ....
carry on

[Knacker]

I don't believe that just "letting it go" is going to help, maybe this situation is over and done with but for future events there has to be reprocussions for your actions. Cheaters in the olympics have medals stripped, poachers who are turned in get stiff fines, athletes get suspended for fighting and indecent acts, disqualification for drug use, and this is all for the betterment of the sport. I personally would not be posting here if I were in those peoples shoes that were affected; I would be taking it up with all involved. However the "out cry" that is a result to unsportmanship conduct is a great factor when judgements in these matters are made. You see it in any other sport, happens in politics all the time and even the courts sometimes are swayed by public opinion.

I guess all in all, if I am going to spend good money and much of my personal time aswell as sacrificing family time, I would like to be ensured that these problems are kept at an absolute minimum. Turning a blind eye doesn't work for the justice system, and doesn't work in sports either. :)

I hope this thread shows how much poor sportsmanship affects everyone.

[despain]

I don't believe that just "letting it go" is going to help, maybe this situation is over and done with but for future events there has to be reprocussions for your actions. Cheaters in the olympics have medals stripped, poachers who are turned in get stiff fines, athletes get suspended for fighting and indecent acts, disqualification for drug use, and this is all for the betterment of the sport. I personally would not be posting here if I were in those peoples shoes that were affected; I would be taking it up with all involved. However the "out cry" that is a result to unsportmanship conduct is a great factor when judgements in these matters are made. You see it in any other sport, happens in politics all the time and even the courts sometimes are swayed by public opinion.

I guess all in all, if I am going to spend good money and much of my personal time aswell as sacrificing family time, I would like to be ensured that these problems are kept at an absolute minimum. Turning a blind eye doesn't work for the justice system, and doesn't work in sports either. :)

I hope this thread shows how much poor sportsmanship affects everyone.

Well Said Knacker

[acearchery]

Thanks Knacker.... Well said..... I hope this encourages those affected.... and those who have information about the alleged incidents to follow up with FCA....... so that it can be resolved to everyone's satisfaction.....

Perhaps even a letter to the FCA requesting an investigation to ensure the integrity of our sport is not out of place based on the allegations!....

What do you guys think?

[Scar]

I wasn't there but the judges incorrect call should be something we work on preventing in the future. From what I've read here the judge was called over concerning shooting the wrong target and the judge said he could shoot again. If that call had been made that a shot arrow is a shot arrow that would be the end of it.

Should the judge have even been needed? Probably not, probably should have taken 0 immediately, but he didn't just tell his group that the target was improper and reshoot it, he did get a judge over.

How many questions were asked of judges that weekend where incorrect answers were given? They may not have been things that effected the outcome this time, but incorrect information seems to travel way better then correct info. I'm talking in a more general terms then just nationals too, we need to be sure that the judges know the rules, or call another judge who does when the question asked exceeds there knowledge.

Every incorrect ruling has someone convinced thats right that they take home to there own club, especially from a tourny like nationals where they might go home and say "hey guys, we are doing it wrong the judge at nationals said we are supposed to do ........".

Just a disclaimer I wasn't there so I'm not saying there was a bunch of incorrect rulings, just that any that occur there or anywhere are hard on our sport so keeping them to a bare minimum should be a priority for all clubs and shoots.