Crossbows at 3D Nationals?

[WOOKIE]

Through the rumor mill, I have heard that the host club wants to have a crossbow class at the 2007 Outdoor 3D Nats in Ontario. Does the FCA even recognize a crossbow as archery tackle?

[Fotch]

In Ontario, crossbows have been recognized since at least the mid 90's. I even remember shooting against them in the open class when I was there.

The more the merrier if you ask me!

[WOOKIE]

In Ontario, crossbows have been recognized since at least the mid 90's. I even remember shooting against them in the open class when I was there.

The more the merrier if you ask me!

Reread my question please. I know the OAA recognizes crossbows, but this is not a provincial competition. I asked if the Federation of Canadian Archers (FCA), the sactioning body for the FCA Nationals, recognizes a crossbow as archery tackle.

[HOYTarcher]

XBOWS are not recognized according to the FCA equipment divisions from the rule book. For them to be recognized a PSO would have to make a application at the AGM and have it passed by the voting delegates, if things haven't changed since I was on the FCA board, which they may have, its been along time.

Although the FCA loosely follows IBO rules they are usually a year or so behind. I beleive the IBO now has a xbow class.

Not sure how this will effect the ABA remaining in the FCA, I know there has been discussion about not reaffiliating and with the strong stance agains xbow use I'm sure if the FCA allowed xbows it would be another item against reaffiliation



11.19 FCA Shooting Classes
[Changes throughout]

11.19.1 Combined Classes

At their discretion, organizers may offer either or both:

· Combined or separate male and female classes, usually depending on number of registrants. For example, all male and female Junior Traditional shooters may be combined into a JRT(m/f) class instead of offering JRT(m) and JRT(f) classes separately.

· Combined youth classes by eliminating the younger classes. For example, all Cub and Pre-Cub male and female compound shooters can be combined by offering just CUBC(m/f), and not CUBC(m/f) or PCUB(m/f) separately.

11.19.2 Designating Male and Female Classes

In order to designate whether classes are combined or separate, “(m)” or “(f)” or “(m/f)” is added to the abbreviated or full designation of the class (e.g. HUN(m), HUN(f), or HUN(m/f), Masters 50(m), Masters 50(f), Masters 50(m/f).

11.19.3 Shooting Classes Defined

See Rule 11.7.1 for Indoor and Outdoor stakes for each class.

See Rule 11.11.2 for additional requirements on equipment for the classes defined below.

Masters 60 - M60(m/f) or M60(m) & M60(f)

(optional class)

Any type of equipment or style, subject to any restrictions above, may be used.

Masters 50 - M50(m/f) or M50(m) & M50(f)

(optional class)

Any type of equipment or style, subject to any restrictions above, may be used.

Masters 50 Traditional - M50TR(m/f) or M50TR(m) & M50TR(f)

(optional class)

1. Any type of traditional recurve or longbow may be used.

2. The bow may be shot with a glove, finger tab or bare fingers.

3. Sights are not allowed.

4. Stabilizers are not allowed.

5. While shooting, the archer will touch the arrow with the index finger against the nock. The archer will use a single anchor point - string walking and face walking are not allowed.

Compound Unaided - CU(m/f) or CU(m) & CU(f)

1. A compound bow with no sighting device must be used.

2. A rest and plunger are all that may reside within the sight window.

3. There will be no markings on the bow or bowstring that could be construed as sighting marks.

4. Archers must shoot with a glove, finger tab or bare fingers.

Bowhunter Fingers - BHF(m/f) or BHF(m) & BHF(f)

1. A compound, recurve or longbow may be used.

2. The bow must be shot with a glove, finger tab or bare fingers.

3. A non-electronic sight which may be moveable is allowed.

4. The sight may be fixed pin, cross hair or scope style with or without a lens, which may be magnifying.

5. Circle style pins are allowed if the circles are of one size.

Bowhunter Release - BHR(m/f) or BHR(m) & BHR(f)

1. A compound, recurve or long bow may be used.

2. The bow must be shot with some type of release aid.

3. If a sight is used, it will have fixed pins.

4. Cross hair style pins are allowable as fixed pin sights.

5. Circle style pins are allowed if the circles are of one size.

6. Sights may not be adjusted while on the range during a tournament.

Bowhunter Open - BHO(m/f) or BHO(m) & BHO(f)

1. A compound, recurve or longbow may be used.

2. Any type of release aid, glove, finger tab or bare fingers may be used.

3. A moveable sight of any kind may be used.

Recurve Un-Aided - RU(m/f) or RU(m) & RU(f)

1. A recurve or longbow may be used.

2. The bow must be shot with a glove, finger tab or bare fingers.

3. No sighting device is allowed and there will be no markings on the bow or on the bowstring that could be construed as sighting marks.

4. A rest and plunger are all that may reside within the sight window.

5. There will not be any type of draw check on the bow string.

6. The arrows used will all be of the same material and will all be of uniform length and weight.

7. No stabilizers are allowed [Note; This is a change and is different from the IBO definition of RU where short stabilizers are allowed.]

8. While shooting, the archer will touch the arrow with the index finger against the nock. The archer will use a single anchor point - string walking and face walking are not allowed.

Hunter - HUN(m/f) or HUN(m) & HUN(f)

1. A compound, recurve, or longbow may be used.

2. The bow may be shot with a release aid, a finger tab, a glove or bare fingers.

3. If a sight is used,

· a crosshair style sight will have no more than four crosshair points,

· a fixed pin sight will have no more than (4) pins,

· a circle pin sight must have all circles of the same size,

· it must not have a lens whether magnifying or not.

· It may not be electronic

4. Arrows must have screw-in style points and minimum 4-inch vanes or feathers.

5. Only one (1) single stabilizer being less than twelve (12) inches in length from the nearest point of attachment is allowed.

6. Secondary vibration dampers that extend less than two (2) inches, from point of attachment are allowed. These vibration dampeners are not counter weights, and weight may not be added to them.

7. A competitor may compete in the HUN class provided he/she has not won in this class in a previous year at either the FCA Indoor or Outdoor 3D Canadian Championships.

Hunter Fingers - HF(m/f) or HF(m) & HF(f)

1. Allowed equipment is as for HUN above except that the bow may only be shot with a finger tab, a glove or bare fingers.

2. A competitor may compete in the HF class provided he/she has not won in this class in a previous year at either the FCA Indoor or Outdoor 3D Canadian Championships.

Traditional Longbow - TRD(m/f) or TRD(m) & TRD(f)

1. There is a 90-lb. maximum bow weight.

2. The bow must satisfy the following definition of a longbow:
When the bow is strung, the string touches only the nocks of the bow, at the shelf the bow will be cut no closer than 1/8 inch to the centreline of the bow. In case a bow cut centre shot is found, it may be re-qualified by adding a leather pad to a thickness that will meet the rules.

3. The bow may be shot with a glove, finger tab or bare fingers.

4. While shooting, the archer will touch the arrow with the index finger against the nock.

5. The archer will use a single anchor point - string walking and face walking are not allowed.

6. All arrows must be nocked at the same string location.

7. Strings must have single colour middle serving with no marks.

8. One or two nock locators, which may be snap-on type, tubing, thread or dental floss tied or served on the servings are allowed.

9. The arrow must be shot from the shelf or hand with no elevated rest. Only a piece of leather or similar material 1/8 inch thick or less is allowed on the arrow shelf.

10. Cushion plungers or rests with mechanical adjustments are not allowed.

11. No sights, stabilizers or counter balances are allowed. Attempts to circumvent this rule by building bows with massive or weighted handle-risers will disqualify the shooter.

12. Arrow shafts:

· must have a minimum of 125-grain points.

· must be identical in length, weight and colour; except for normal wear.

· must be wooden.

13. An overdraw is not allowed.

Junior Compound - JRC(m/f) or JRC(m) & JRC(f)

1. A compound bow must be used.

2. The bow may be shot with a release, glove, finger tab or bare fingers.

3. If a sight is used, it can be fixed pins, moveable sight, or scope but may not be electronic.

Junior Traditional - JRT(m/f) or JRT(m) & JRT(f)

1. Any recurve bow or longbow may be used.

2. The bow must be shot with a glove, finger tab or bare fingers.

3. A sight is not allowed.

4. Stabilizers are not allowed.

5. While shooting, the archer will touch the arrow with the index finger against the nock. The archer will use a single anchor point - string walking and face walking are not allowed.

Cadet Compound - CADC(m/f) or CADC(m) & CADC(f)

Equipment as Junior Compound

Cadet Traditional - CADT(m/f) or CADT(m) & CADT(f)

Equipment as Junior Traditional

Cub Compound -CUBC

Equipment as Junior Compound

Usually offered as combined male and female class CUBC(m/f)

Cub Traditional - CUBT

Equipment as Junior Traditional

Usually offered as combined male and female class CUBT(m/f)

Pre-Cub Compound - PCUBC

Equipment as Junior Compound

Usually offered as combined male and female class PCUBC(m/f)

Pre-Cub Traditional - PCUBT

Equipment as Junior Traditional

Usually offered as combined male and female class PCUBT(m/f)

Peewee - PW

1. This class may be established at the discretion of the host club.

2. Any type of equipment or style, subject to any restrictions in the rules above, may be used.

3. The maximum shooting distance will be 15 yards (13.72 metres).

[Suggested format: Announce a scheduled starting time, with all shooters present to begin at one time. Set a separate range of 10 targets for this class only. The range may be an open area with shooting stakes in a straight line and targets at unknown distances.]

4. Archers in this class are not entitled to receive medals or awards based on score but all shooters should receive participation awards.

5. There are no separate male and female Peewee classes.

Non Competitive - NC

1. At the 3D Nationals, this class will only be established at the discretion of the FCA 3D committee and the host club.

2. This class is suitable for novice archers and archers with equipment covered under rule 11.12.6.5.

3. Archers in this class are not entitled to receive medals or awards.

4. No separate male and female classes are to be offered.

5. Archers may shoot from any stake.

6. There will be no separate Guest category for NC at National Championships

[Fotch]

I could only find that the topic did come up at the 2006 FCA 3D BOARD MEETING but I couldn't find out what came of it.

Why doesn't Alberta like crossbows?

[acearchery]

I want to make it clear Alberta is not against crossbows.....

The majority of the ABA membership do not want crossbows to be counted as archery tackle and allowed in archery seasons in Alberta as the feeling is it would make for increased number of hunters utilising the archery seasons therefore lowering hunting opportunities for archers. Crossbows are legal for those with a classified handicap to use in archery seasons and are allowed for all hunters in the general seasons. The argument is based on "a crossbow is not a bow".

Now people will bring up examples in the states where crossbows are legal in archery seasons..... but the fact is that crossbows are only legal in archery season not in firearm season. Alberta does not have a "firearm only" season like those states but has a general season which allows use of crossbows. Alberta is not against crossbows.

[HOYTarcher]

From the National Office (FCA)


This point was raised at the Executive Committee last weekend. No, FCA does not have any plans to recognise the crossbow. However, 3D rules do allow the host committee to add a category due to local interest. The EC has asked the FCA 3D committee to review this rule. From my perspective, the rules for hosting a 3D national championship allow this and in the past other O/C’s have allowed Primitive class, etc. So, for 2007 I do not see that it can be rescinded.


Looks like xbows will be recognized for the first time at a national 3D.

[Fotch]

Cool.

[Lionel]

Hi,
Although there are arguments for and against crossbows for hunting in archery season, I feel that to be a bow you must draw and hold the bow as the animal comes near.
There are 100% let off bows and there are attachments that allow a hunter to have the bow drawn with the arrow on the rest and ready to release as they would with a crossbow. I see this in the same light as a crossbow.
With a crossbow, you could have it cocked and on a bench in a blind just like a rifle.
I watched them shoot at the IBO worlds and I was amazed at how well they shot. They had good rifle shooting form and large rifle scopes. Some how that seems to take away what I see as bowhunting. Having to turn and draw and hold (even 75%) adds to the task.
I can see the debate for a crossbow catagory in a 3d but to me it is not archery and should not be in a regular archery hunting season.
Just my opinion

Lionel

[WOOKIE]

Personally, I agree with Lionel. Crossbows are not archery tackle, but that is just my opinion and I am but a single fish in an ocean full of em.

[Fotch]

I'm sencing a lot of crossbow uneducation here.

There are a lot of guys who go buy a bow from Walmart, buy a tag and go shoot a deer in the ass during archery season for these people they would be better off buying a crossbow,(apparently not in Alberta). anyone could buy a crossbow and go hit a pie plate consistantly, the same cannot be said for a compound or recurve.

Don't get me wrong crossbows do kinda suck a little and I will never own one, they have a very short powerstroke and are not very consistant, and I'll shoot against anyone with a crossbow and me with my compound and beat them. (probably badly)

And as for archery tackle, a crossbow is just a bow turned on its side with a holding and release mechanism. it is not a firearm or a gun. Do you call them string guns in AB?

[HOYTarcher]

Legislation in Alberta requires a bow to be draw and held with muscle power. Hence xbows, drawlocs and other devices are not legal during the archery season.

The majority of Alberta Bowhunters Association members are against inclusion of xbows in the archery season for many reasons. But the ability of the crossbow to be loaded and at the ready without having to be drawn is likely the largest argument against there inclusion with bows.

Bowhunters are already exceeding the harvest goals for several species within Alberta, including Moose, Antelope and Mule Deer (in some areas). As a result, bowhunters no longer have the privilege of hunting these species in a pre-archery season or have to wait longer to obtain a special licence through the draw process. The lost opportunity to bowhunt certain species on a general licence, although selfish, is a very real argument for many as too why crossbows should not be allowed in the general season. In some areas bowhunters now enter the draw for Moose and have to hunt during the general season along with rifle, muzzleloader and crossbow hunters.

Crossbows are allowed for persons with permanent disabilities.

It will be interesting to see where the crossbow market goes. For those that say they are only as efficient as a compound the new Stryker Crossbow by Bowtech claims to shoot a 400+grain bolt at over 400 fps with a 1" drop from 20-40 yards. I think you'd be hard pressed to find a compound even close to this performace level with an arrow of the same weight. I haven't ran the information through a ballistics program but the trajectory drop appears to be considerably lower than that of a compound. I think the technology available to the crossbow will easily outstrip that of the compound in the future in terms of performance but thats just my opinion and only time will tell.

Many argue that crossbows will increase hunter numbers. I think history in other jurisdictions shows that although rifle hunters may try crossbow hunting very few new hunters will be brought into the sport.

Like anything this is only my opinion. I have my opinion and respect yours.
I have no problem with xbows in the 3D Nationals.

[WOOKIE]

And as for archery tackle, a crossbow is just a bow turned on its side with a holding and release mechanism. it is not a firearm or a gun. Do you call them string guns in AB?

I don't know about you, but I hold my bow at full draw with muscles. When a deer walks in, I have to draw my bow undetected, not just point a pre-loaded weapon and pull a trigger. Xbows have no business being called archery tackle. And so it ties into the original thread, I feel they have no place in an national archery event.

[Scar]

I'm not going to get into a hunting debate right now, but as far as at an archery competition I'm not sure. Recurve guys could make the argument that compound shooters don't hold the full weight so they have more aiming time etc. etc. Traditional guys can make the same argument about olympic style recurve shooters having stabilizers and sights etc. I have never shot a crossbow and the only one that would interest me would be a small one handed one which our government has banned. (Evidently alot of 7-11 holdups with them). I do know that with my target quality heavy barrel .22 rifle with 20 power scope light trigger etc I still only shoot groups about as well as I do with my bow(edit: this is shooting standing just like with the bow), no scope, just a pin.

I don't know enough about crossbows to know what kind of advantage they may offer in something like a 3d competition and I would imagine they would be in there own category anyway. The real questions to me are target damage, more damage less damage etc, and the ergonomics of it. I havn't done much outdoor 3d but at indoor there simply isn't room to have a horizontal bow on the line.

So while I'm not ready to jump on board for crossbows just yet I feel we need to ask ourselves, is increasing the types of activities and number of opportunites really bad for the shooting sports as a whole? Are there serious downsides to allowing crossbows and is the increase opportunity and interest in the shooting sports enough of a bonus to counter it?

Please remember I'm only referring to competition shooting, not hunting.

[acearchery]

Thanks Wookie.... wanted to answer but did not want to hijack thread further!....

The inefficiency referred to with crossbows is the poundage that the limbs are set at to offset the draw stroke.... hunting crossbows must be 150 lbs + draw weight!.... The bowtech referred to is 200+ lbs!...

I have a strong personal opinion on this issue..... I feel crossbows are archery tackle.... Archery refers to the pojectile which is an arrow.... shaft, fletches, point..... 9It is archery not Bowchery)

I am going to open a huge can of worms!... if the ABA does not like crossbows and archery tackle is defined as hand drawn by muscle power and released the why is someone with a draw lock system recieving ABA hunter awards!.......

Also it is very hard (almost impossible) to get a handicap permit!......

And Scar personally i agree with you!

Here is a challenge.....Most of the people that are anti-crossbow..... HAVE NOT TRIED ONE!.... They have thoght about it.... seen it..... have an opinion.... USE ONE... I Have... I do not like the noise or feel and prefer a longbow, recurve or compound....

There is a huge uneducation problem.... Misinformation, propaganda, unfounded opinions are out there.....under the guise of "education".......

The same argument used today for crossbow exclusin were used for compund bow exclusion...... Look at percentage of compound users today.... majority.... this is what the biggest fear is based on!.... what if it becomes preferred?....WE FEAR CHANGE!.... But one major difference..... The crossbow predates the english/welsh longbow!..... If it would have caught on... it would have by now!....

There is an underlying fear that if a rifle hunter can use a crossbow in an archery season that the archery season will be flooded with crossbow users and hunting opportunities will decrease because of increased number of users!......... The facts....there are none!.... Just theories!.....

BC has always allowed Crossbows..... let's compare shall we.... Their Archery/bowhunting association is not fractured as Alberta's is... They have huge opportunities for bowhunting and archery season... very comparable to Alberta's....

Again this issue will just divide us further in Alberta.... I have provided my opinion as have others.... You and I are not likely to change.... So I respect yours and you respect mine.... and let's shoot together...

I feel that people using a crossbow at Nationals will help provide exposure and allow many folks to see the realities of a crossbow!....

In my opinion they are ungainly, ugly, loud, obnoxious, but they are archery tackle.... just not recognised as such by the Alberta Wildlife Act

Also scar as for a 22.... I can shoot my sillhouette 22 (Custom BRNO Model 1 mounted in an Macmillan Anshutz style Sillhoutte stock converted to single shot with less than 1 lb trigger witha 4-12x Unertl zero parrallax mil grid scope with zero lock rings) very well and can pick off gophers at much longer distances than I can with my bow!..... and the 20 yard group is extremely small.... I could shoot a 300 with 30x's all day long with it at 20 metres offhand! !.....(I have shot 48/50 times into a 1/4" circle with a rest.... at 35 yards)


Are rests or shooting sticks allowed in the crossbow class or do they have to be held offhand?

[HOYTarcher]

I think you made one of my points for me Allen. Since the crossbow doesn't have to be drawn by hand (there are lots of mechanical cocking aids out there) what is there to stop a crossbow from being built with an even higher poundage. With the technology available a bolt of over 400 grains and shot in ecxess of even 500 fps is not that far from reality.

The stryker claims an effective range of 60 yards (website) but at the ATA show they claimed sub 4" groups at distances far surpassing this.

Todays compound is limited by the ability of the archer to draw the bow and mechanical efficiences that are already pushing 90%.

I have no problem with crossbows at Nationals or within thier own hunting or general season. I'll admit I'm selfish I don't want to loose anymore of the bow season than we are already loosing. BC's season is one of the shortest in the country is my understanding although I haven't looked into it.

BTW I think we need a muzzleloader season in this Province too. Maybe a crossbow/muzzleloader season would appease the masses. No reason we can't be hunting still in December and even into January.

Why crossbow proponent have to push their use in the archery season and not a new season makes no sense to me. BTW I've shot crossbows and would likely be one of the first out their to buy one if there was a seperate season. Same way I purchased a muzzleloader to hunt ever 3-4 years in Camp Wainright.

[ganonymous]

I enjoy reading this thread and I pose a question; a real question that comes to mind.

"Legislation in Alberta requires a bow to be draw and held with muscle power."

A compound bow, that has let off, and using a release in contrast with a crossbow that utilizes more strength to pull back and load, yet utilizes soley mechanical devices to hold string.

My question is are both of these scenarios contrary to the quote or do these scenarios exist within the frame work of this quote?

I can see how these points exist contrary and within the constraints of such a quote.
can any one explain?

[WOOKIE]

I enjoy reading this thread and I pose a question; a real question that comes to mind.

"Legislation in Alberta requires a bow to be draw and held with muscle power."

A compound bow, that has let off, and using a release in contrast with a crossbow that utilizes more strength to pull back and load, yet utilizes soley mechanical devices to hold string.

My question is are both of these scenarios contrary to the quote or do these scenarios exist within the frame work of this quote?

I can see how these points exist contrary and within the constraints of such a quote.
can any one explain?

When you totally relax your body when holding a compound, recurve or longbow, even with a mechanical release aid....your in trouble.....if it is a hand held release, it's removing your sight for you. If it's a strap release....your whole hand is heading down range.

Now, same senario with an X-bow.....At full draw you totally relax every muscle in your body....what happens.......nothing, although hope to hell someone is holding thed Xbow or it is on a bench, or it will hit the ground.

A bow is held at full draw by musclular power. An Xbow is held at full draw by a sear???

That my friend, answers your question. Even though, with a bow you are using a mechanical aid to loose your arrow, you're body is still physically responsible for holding the bow at full draw.

[HOYTarcher]

A crossbow can be loaded with no muscle power. My old horton used to load with a electric drill, I guess the muscle power to pull the trigger on the drill is something though.

Even a concept bow with 99% let-off will not stay drawn and requires a pulling motion at the moment before the shot to get the bow back.

I didn't think the drawlock was legal in ALberta, anyone know for sure. If t allows the bow to be held without any muscle power required it would be illegal according to how I read the wildlife act, but I'm no lawyer. If its not legal bring it up at the ABA agm it wouldn't be the first time someones had game animals and records removed from the book, if you don't want to let me know and I'll have it brought up if the animals were harvested illegally. (Is a draw lock illegal?)

[acearchery]

A bit of clarification... My understanding is a 3/4 draw lock was used where the archer had to finish pulling it back.... hold it and release.... but the draw lock brings it past the break over point!. Not illegal but now we are getting into a very dangerous grey area that brings this close to a crossbow.... but recognised by ABA!....

Also crossbow efficiency is down because the arrow in a crossbow does not flex as much as out of a compound, recurve or longbow.... does not soak up as much energy!....

AND MA I agree with a seperate season for the crossbow.... but where is it going to come from... I think that archery only "zones" not season could be expanded to include crossbows.... Especially in light of deer overpopulation..... or supplemental tags in archery zones.... could use crossbow!.... I do see both sides of the issue but the argument emphasiszing a "crossbow is not a bow" is to weak to stand on....

In NE BC where I am from Archery seasons are very similar to Alberta.... However the general seasons are also very long.... elk, moos from August to Nov for general... deer have an archery season from Sept to Nov, thengeneral after that till end of Nov... however some areas general season for deer starts in Sept.

GA.... you can walk away from crossbow and it is loaded.... try it with your compound... the archer is the structural holding component!...

[HOYTarcher]

Overpopulation in Bowzones has absolutely nothing to do with harvest rates and success. It can be directly attributed to access or specifically the lack there of. More overcrowding by expanding to xbows will only make the situation worse. Each year all I hear is "we should just post the area because I'm tired of everyone coming to ask at all times of the day and night", I guess thats the hazards of owning ranch land within an hour of 1 million people. I hunt several places in the bowzone and of them at least two would not aloww crossbows (the owners are bowhunters) and don't allow muzzleloaders now even though they are legal in the late season.

I suggested a Dec/Jan season. Hell, I'd even give up some early season if we could tack on some more late season hunting.

[Scar]

I'm really undecided on having crossbows included with other archery tackle during archery only season, could go either way yet. However having a muzzleloader and that could include crossbow sseason is an excellent idea, one, i've wanted for a long time. Even if it ran in october, we could allow archers there special archery tags and let them hunt sept and oct, however allow others to even use there draw and general season tags in oct to harvest with blackpowder or crossbow etc. That way the archers aren't losing out on tags from an increased archery harvest since these tags are coming out of the rifle season tags. ie archery tags work as now, but if I get drawn for mule buck I can bow hunt in sept, muzzleloader in oct and rifle hunt in nov if I still havn't gotten one. If I didn't get drawn I can buy my general mule deer tag which is archery only and hunt sept oct for it. Only thing archers lose on is they have a little more hunting pressure in October.

However SRD keeps using the story that ABA is against this too. They don't want an october muzzleloader season running concurrent with the archery season. If the ABA is not against this someone please fill me in.

[acearchery]

Very true!..... Access is the issue and crossbows may cut that down!!!

[HOYTarcher]

Don't know if the ABA is for or against anything like what you propose but I could see that by increasing harvest rates on trophy Mule Deer you may have to put archery on a draw as well. Hence the resistance of some to such a proposal. I'd likely include myself in that group.

While increasing harvest levels of some sexes and species is desirable some sexes/species cannot handle additional harvest.

No answers here, but I love the fact Alberta has one of the most liberal bow seasons in all of Canada.

[Scar]

I think the increase in harvest wouldn't increase much under my system. Usually someone with a tag for a mule buck can fill that in the genereal rifle season we have now, allowing them to hunt it in october with a muzzleloader increases there hunting opportunities and I suppose the chances at a trophy, but if they shoot one with a muzzleloader they do not get to shoot another in rifle season, it's only one tag, that can be used either place. The people who get opportunites to harvest bigger bucks with the longer season may be offset by the number of people willing to shoot smaller bucks with the black powder tackle. Of course the overall success rate for every 100 tags issued may raise slightly too, but I don't see it being a large increase, maybe 5% or less.

Of course in zones where the population is abundant and the goal is a reduction then extra tags could be issued specific to muzzleloader season, or just issued as extra rifle tags which would be good in muzzleloader season or rifle season.

[willyqbc]

Well I will say this...its pretty easy for you folks in Alberta to look down on the X-bow hunters considering how liberal your archery seasons are. However.....here in B.C. we are kicking and scrapping for every scrap of season we can get and are getting very stiff objection from the rifle hunting community. The ministry has in fact just announced an "abeyance"(moratorium) on any new archery seasons here. I am currently the vice-president of the United bowhunters of B.C. and although many of our members may secretly look down their noses somewhat at the X-bow hunters they realize that they are our closest natural ally and we need all the support we can get. If your seasons suddenly were being curtailed and you found yourself in need of the additional numbers the X-bow hunters would bring you, there would be a bunch of folks changing their tune right quick I'll bet. Be careful what bridges you burn today because you never know what will happen down the road.

Chris

[HOYTarcher]

I have to agree, if seasons weren't as liberal as they were things likely would be quite different.

The reverse is actually true in Alberta, in some areas and for some species bowhunters are being told we're harvesting too many animals (more than the bowhunting policy for Alberta allows). Crossbowhunters would likely add to this in many areas.

I'm sure there is a happy medium somewhere, just not sure where.

Scar - personally like your idea - very similar to Saskatchewan.

[acearchery]

Good Point WillyQbc!....

[Mikey]

Ok I have stayed away from this Poop Sammich long enuf ...

Cross bows are not archery equip in my opinion ...And yes i have picked one up ... I have used one .... I found it to extremely easy to use ...... maybe I am snubbing my nose ....But honestly I found it easier to shoot than a rifle .

maybe I am naturally talented .... but when I shoot a 299 on the dime with a crossbow at 18 meters ...there aint alot of talent needed folks .

Archery is a game of skill ....

that all said I dont really beleive that x-bows have that much more effective range than any compound ..... If a person is lazy and dont wanna learn archery but wanna reap the seasons and get the upclose and personal expiriance they are gonna go with a cross bow.

Do they belong in the same season? ... I dont know ...x-bow users still need the skills to get up close to get a shot off ....belly crawling with cocked weapon is not a good idea no matter what the weapon ....tree stand shooting provides the advantage of not haveing to draw when the animal is close to you .... points can be made for both .... I personally dont like the idea or x-bows in archery only seasons .... however I have no issue with them in "primitive" weapon seasons ...but again this all belongs on another thread ...


back to topic

Do they belong at a FCA santioned event ?.... Not as far as I am concerned ... That said however ...last Time I looked the national host commitee is granted certain "liberties" to make some of their own classes ...where an x-bow class would fall into such a liberty.

I dont know how targets would stand up to x-bow bolts ..... lets face it 400 grains at 400 feet/sec (bowtechs unit)is a hell of alot KE and momentum (right Al?) I am thinking alot of blow thrus and most croos bow bolts are a fatter shaft than most "arrows" .... they are smaller than an Easton "Fatboy" yet bigger than Eastons "Axis"

My 2 cents worth

[WOOKIE]

maybe I am naturally talented

:loser: :sunnyy5: Nope! :loser: :sunnyy5:

[acearchery]

Wookie my esteemed colleague I prefer to differ in my opinion regarding Mikey's natural talent.....

Do you think Mikey's ability to BS the way he does is not just due to practice alone is it? i am sure that natural ability has a lot to do with it!.....

And Mikey you do make some good points..... range is similar..... shouldn,t belly crawl with it cocked.... takes less practice to use.....

As for target damage..... crossbows are limited to 300 fps..... A bowtech shooting at 320 fps with a 300 grain acc at 60 lbs will penetrate further and cause more damage than the crossbow if arrow diameter, material and weight are constant.....

KE= 15.35 million grains feet squared/sec squared
momentum= 920 grains feet/second


300 fps crossbow arrow (bolt is a projectile without fletching) that is 20" long weiging the same weight..... 300 grains (heavier points)

KE = 12.5 million grains feet squared/s squared
momentum= 900 grains feet/second

KE mvv/2
momentum = mv

[WOOKIE]

Wookie my esteemed colleague I prefer to differ in my opinion regarding Mikey's natural talent.....

Do you think Mikey's ability to BS the way he does is not just due to practice alone is it? i am sure that natural ability has a lot to do with it!.....

And Mikey you do make some good points..... range is similar..... shouldn,t belly crawl with it cocked.... takes less practice to use.....

As for target damage..... crossbows are limited to 300 fps..... A bowtech shooting at 320 fps with a 300 grain acc at 60 lbs will penetrate further and cause more damage than the crossbow if arrow diameter, material and weight are constant.....

KE= 15.35 million grains feet squared/sec squared
momentum= 920 grains feet/second


300 fps crossbow arrow (bolt is a projectile without fletching) that is 20" long weiging the same weight..... 300 grains (heavier points)

KE = 12.5 million grains feet squared/s squared
momentum= 900 grains feet/second

KE mvv/2
momentum = mv

Yikes! :eek: I have a formula too!

(WxI)/Iq=Cl where:

W=Wookie
I=Information
Iq=Intelligence Quotient
Cl+Confusion Level

so, lets plug it all in:

(Wookie X Information)/Intelligence Quotient=Confusion Level

therefore

Confusion Level=Infinate

[HOYTarcher]

How are crossbows restricted to 300fps?
I know in Ontaria most of the 3D shoots have speed rules of 280 for compound etc. but Nationals would be FCA rules(FCA has no xbow rules), where does the 300fps rule come into it?

Many xbows now will go well over 300 fps with much heavier bolt. IE Stryker and Excaliber.

[acearchery]

For the FCA shoot the registartion form states crossbow speed restriction to be 300 fps... most crossbow shoots also have draw weight restrictions etc... eg. IBO....

[HOYTarcher]

Thanks, seemed strange that crossbows were restricted and compounds are not, but I was too lazy to look it up.

[acearchery]

compounds are restricted... max draw weight....

FCA also 280 fps max OR at least 5 grains per lb draw weight.... i believe max draw weight is 80 lbs and 90 for lonbgbow.....

Also kids are restricted as well for draw weight!...

[Mikey]

How are crossbows restricted to 300fps?
I know in Ontaria most of the 3D shoots have speed rules of 280 for compound etc. but Nationals would be FCA rules(FCA has no xbow rules), where does the 300fps rule come into it?

Many xbows now will go well over 300 fps with much heavier bolt. IE Stryker and Excaliber.


That would fall into the host commitee "liberties" ...ie: make rules up as they go along for the classes that they make up

I have seen what a crossbow does to a 3D hen turkey built by a respected target company .... blew threw in 100 shots ...... If someone wants a x-bow class so be it ..... I wanna shoot the targets before the x-bow class tho

[Raven]

Just visited the website for this summers 3D nationals to be held in Ontario. I was a little shocked when I saw that the FCA has a new equipment category. CROSSBOWS

[ACC3-28]

Is that really a bad thing though? It brings more people into the sport and draws a bigger crowd to the nationals. There are a lot of people out there who are not physically capable of shooting a bow, this brings them into the crowd now as well. I've seen the IBO do it and it worked well there, so I can't see it being a bad thing.

[russ]

It's bad when it start destroying club targets, (ie the hen story)

[acearchery]

Speed is limited to 300 fps..... arrow is lighter..... less momentum and KE than many 3D bows.... How will this wreck targets.... This is at the discretion of the host club.... not FCA... but FCA will allow host club to add a class of their own!...

My CXL 250's weighing 300 grains at 300 fps do just as much damage.....

Besides I used to use my hunting bow with 400 grain arrows at 76 lbs years ago for 3D.... try and pull them out of targets.... the old targets were more brittle even and they still stood up....

Not an issue.... I believe it would be good to see this and help dispel some of the crossbow myths.... IBO has a crossbow division!....

If you have not used one or truly understand them.... Sit back.... Shut up.... and observe!...

Here is a picture..... Mathews Outback 380 grain Carbon Arrows....CX 300's at 60 lbs...

Excalibur crossbow.... 220 lbs.... with 2117 aluminum arrows.....

Which penetrates farther ......

[HOYTarcher]

Neither, they both completely penetrated the target you are shooting at. There is a hole all the way through it. :tongue:

[acearchery]

MA Very True!........

In a foam target.... no pictures sorry.... the penetration depth was very similar. The crossbow arrows appeared to be further as they were buried up to base of fletch (soft foam) but they are only 21" long!.....

[willyqbc]

It's bad when it start destroying club targets, (ie the hen story)

The fact of the matter is that the Xbows do not cause any more damage than any other bow. Heck when i was shooting 80#' my 440 grain arrow was going 307 fps...now that will do some damage!! If damage is the best reason we can come up with then we better ban the trad shooters as well who seem to enjoy flinging a quiver full of "screwing around shots" after they have taken their scoring shot. I see that ALL the time...especially at local indoor events, they shoot their target then fling an arrow at any open target out their to kill time while the compounder groups finish up. Well for the same price I'll take one crossbow bolt in one target rather than 6 trad arrows in multiple targets. Ya gotta come up with a better reason to keep the xbowers out than target damage...that argument doesn't hold water.

Chris

[grandpawarcher]

Maybe we ought not to get too negative over these issues. Everyone needs a place to play and compete. There are a lot of catagories that were implimented so that more people could be accomodated. I believe exclusion is not the way to go. If individual groups splinter and go off by themselves, organizations get weaker, not stronger.
Remember we are all getting older, and the day is coming when YOU are not going to be able to pull your bow to full draw for a variety of reasons.
Please give everyone's future a break.

[Self Bow]

As if right now, cross bows are not legal to possess in game habitat in Nova Scotia. This may change, but then the instructors of a cross bow course have to be trained and then the users would have to be trained. Most archery groups groups do not want them in the archery season.

Most groups in NS would prefer that they never be classified as archery takcle and be recognized as crossbows, not bows. To that end, we believe they should form their own associations and negotiate with DNR for seasons. Like most states, we fell they should be in the black powder season or their own season or zone.

Between this issue, the kids/parents thing, the insurance fiasco, and some of the new rules, the FCA has been making lots of mistakes that in this area seem to be taking the fun out of archery resulting in fewer people attending shoots.

[M12]

Having lived and hunted in both Nova Scotia and Manitoba I have seen this issue from both sides. Nova Scotia doesnt allow Cross bows, Manitoba does, but only in the muzzleloader season. Yes we have a dedicated Archery season in Manitoba but you can also use bows during general rifle season, which is what I do. I havent bought a rifle tag in many seaons.
I disagree with the use of Crossbows for both hunting and 3D. As someone who has taken up Archery as a sport and practised it in order to become proficient I see Crossbows as the easy way out. It takes very little practise, skill, or talent in order to use one. From the hunting side this would mean that anyone who wants a longer season (and dont we all) could go out, buy a crossbow, and with little to no experience, hit the woods for an extended season. Once the wounded animals start showing up with arrows sticking out of them, all archery hunters get painted with the same brush. While I'm sure that there are those who do the same thing with a real bow we cant afford to have an exponential increase in the number of animals wounded. Its bad press. I'm sure there are those who will argue that the type of hunter who doesnt practise and wounds animals is the same type who will do so using a rifle also. Correct, I suppose. While its all bad to wound any animal I will offer the counter argument that rifles tend to be lethal after a wound while bows of any type do not. The animal has a better chance of dying after a rifle wound than after a bow wound. Also an arrow sticking out of an animal is much more visible than a bullet wound. From the hunters perspective its all bad.....
Nova Scotia has stated that crossbows would escalete the number of poachings in the province. I tend to agree as they are easy to use, require little practise and are virtually silent when compared to poaching with a rifle.
Oh, and I also agree with having to complete the IBEP program so that you can be tested that you are proficient with your bow.........
Now I only use my bow to hunt with for a few months out of the year......the rest of the year what do I do with it? I shoot rubber or spots.
From the 3D side of the house its again an easy way out. If someone wants to shoot 3D or FITA then pick up a real bow, (compound, olympic, trad, primitive) practise with it and learn to shoot it well.....
The FCA rules have allowed for an addition to classes as discussed in earlier posts. I think this worked to Nova Scotias advantage one year as they added a primitive class. (lots of primitive shooters in NS, no surprise there :D)
So will crossbows ever enter the main stream of archery? I personally hope not. As I said, I think they are the easy way out and if anyone really wants to get into archery to either hunt, shoot foam or spots, then pick up a real bow and do the work required to be proficient.

[grandpawarcher]

I cannot believe the redneck responses on this thread!! Everyone seems to think they are so much more holier than thou! If you are going to learn anything about building strong organizations, then you have to learn to accomodate.
At the local level, we are already struggling with trying to keep the traditional people interested in maintaining their memberships and participating in our tournaments.
Do the compound shooters have "compound only" tournaments? Yet the traditional people do! We try to keep these tradional shooters interested in our tournaments and we in smaller centers need the numbers to function successfully.
Maybe after being part of an executive and entrusted with setting goals and making personal committments to your community, the logic of being more inclusive will finally set in.
It is not " what can the organization do for me? but what can I do for the organization?
It is very easy to criticize from the outside. Join a club and be proactive!
Another note: If you have poaching on your mind, everyone knows the weapon of choice is a 22/250 or similar rifle!
Have a nice day!!:thumbsup:

[Sean]

Crossbows at Nationals was pretty much a non issue, everyone played nice nobody got hurt, sky didn't fall and I had a great time there

[Duggernaut]

Yep. Other than getting used to the sound of them going off on the practice line and the initial worry of them crashing my arrows, not an issue at all. They are no more accurate than regular archery gear.

[Sean]

What I thought was funny was the first day the guys Hoyt was louder than my crossbow was all in all the anti guys tried really hard to hype it up but turned out to be a dud like always..

[DsrtRat]

and with little to no experience, hit the woods for an extended season. Once the wounded animals start showing up with arrows sticking out of them, all archery hunters get painted with the same brush. While I'm sure that there are those who do the same thing with a real bow we cant afford to have an exponential increase in the number of animals wounded. Its bad press

You can't be serious? I live/hunt and shoot in Ontario. You make it sound like a province with crossbows has a bunch of one toothers running around wounding game. I hate to break it to ya sport, but with a X-bow, the chances of getting er done correclty is much higher. You seem to be under the impression that every vertical bow hunter in your area practices weekly to stay sharp and is the prefect hunter! Most likely not the case.

The fact is , in ON, there are plenty of deer for both vertical and horizontal bow hunters even though the MNR let's those crazy ass crossbow shooters into the woods for the same amount of time as the holier than christ vertical shooters.

Think about this. When the day comes that hunting is on the line for people in this country and the anti's are close to winning their fight, do you think divisions within our ranks is going to help us?

[russ]

I hate to break it to ya sport, but with a X-bow, the chances of getting er done correclty is much higher.

Odd, you pro x-bow guys keep telling us that there's no difference is success rates. So which one is it? BTW, you can only pick one. This is literally a black & white question.

As far as x-bows at nationals, not sure it's going to fly again. Apparently the insurance company isn't too keen on the idea.

[Sean]

The sucess rate between crossbows and the rest of the bows is about the same from every study done, the difference is you sending a guy out opening day with a compound or crossbow for the first time, it is a simpler tool for close range but that being said it still doesn't stop out of range shots or plain poor Bowhunting skills you see from crossovers from the gun hunt. Archery will never get the sucess rate of a gun and crossbows I feel simply help stabilise the sucess rate we have against the lesser skilled ie longbow, first time compound hunter.


As for the insurance issue it is a non issue since we have the same carrier in Ontario and they have no problem with them here.

[DsrtRat]

Define "success rate"! If you read my post, I was not referring to the number of deer taken, I was referring to M12s post where he argued that the wounding rate would be higher with X-bows.

Success rate with reference to number of deer taken I would suspect is higher in the crossbow provinces. So what, it's not like Ontario has no deer left since they introduced crossbows. I shoot both compound and crossbow and know that in some situations, my x-bow is better suited and in some cases, my compound gives me an advantage. The beauty of it is, I have the choice.

As for higher wounding rates in M12s post, that is just an emotional response and one that has no facts to back it up. Kind of reminds me of the tree huggers and their argument. All emotion, no facts!!!

Now, since none of us have the actual numbers from our local gov't to show tags purchased vs kills in both areas, let's look at it from a different view. If every compound shooter practised all summer and kept that up during the entire hunting season, the argument would be dead. We all know that is not the case. In fact, I would argue that there are rifle hunters, crossbow hunters and vertical bow hunters that don't pick up their equipment until 1 week before the season. We all know those people are out there and if you try and tell me that they don't exist in the vertical bow community, I am going to call BS!!! Now, assuming that there are a number of these types out there, who is going to have the better chance of making a lethal shot after 9 months of dust collecting on their bow? The crossbow shooter or the vertical bow shooter? We all know the answer to that question. Does it make it right? Nope, I am a strong advocate of guys shooting as much as they can to be sure that every shot results in a quick clean harvest. Further to that, can you vertical shooters honestly tell me that every one of your shooters field tests his hunting clothing to be 100% sure that it will not hinder his shot? Are you guys that morally superior that everyone shoots with his potential pairs of gloves, facemasks, coats etc.. to be lethal in all weather for the entire season? Not likely!

So the real question is, why are vertical bow hunters so against crossbow hunters? Here in Ontario, no one gives a chit! You hunt your property with your equipment; I hunt mine with my equipment. M12 makes it sound like if you use a crossbow you have 3 months of hunting with rifle like yardages. Not so, my x-bow is not much faster and in some cases, is slower than the faster verticals on the market so that argument is just fluff. Hunting for big game takes the same preparation and work as compound hunting. X-bows have to find a suitable location, hang stands, have back cover, and be quiet etc... Believe it or not guys, deer can smell x-bow hunters and see them just as easily as they can vertical bow hunters. I suspect the vertical guys are worried that the woods will be filled with a thousand more hunters and there will be nothing left for them to hunt. Again, just emotion and not fact.

Look at it this way. Here in Ontario, the deer numbers have been up for the last few years. The insurance companies are crying to the gov't to reduce the herd. Well, there are 3 ways doing that. Cull them, allow a longer gun season or have more of them, or increase the number of archery tags and allow people to hunt them with a crossbow. Which would you prefer? You want more gun seasons in the fall that close down archery hunting?

Here is a reality and one that you clowns better take seriously. The anti's are building steam and everyday, hunters are losing ground and are being challenged to keep their rights as hunters. Do you think we have a better chance of surviving if we are busy *****ing amongst ourselves or if we are working together?

I doubt any of what I have said will matter or sink in to you guys. For some reason there is a strong emotional response from vertical only shooters to the crossbow. Most of it based of rumour and not facts. I am glad I live in Ontario! I can shoot whatever I want, whenever I want an no one cares. I don't poach, I practice my shooting all year round and am very proud and happy to take big game with any of my archery equipment. When push comes to shove, I will be fighting for hunter’s rights, ALL hunters. Can you say the same?

[HOYTarcher]

I think we can all agree that by allowing crossbows we will see an increase in the number of deer taken as the number of people participating increases. I'm not sure but would assume the number of hunters increased during archery season as did the total harvest.

For purely selfish reasons I do not want to see this increase. In Alberta bowhunting opportunities for some species are already on the decline. We have seen season reductions for Mule Deer in the south and moose placed on a draw with archery and riffle hunting opportunities combined. It already takes 9+ years to be drawn for trophy 410 sheep and up to 4+ years to be drawn for archery antelope. I don't want to see these numbers increase further.

In general the bowhunting policy for Alberta only allows a 10% harvest of a particular species. While some species/sex classes could support an increase in archery hunter numbers others cannot. A rapid increase in bowhunter numbers would result in the loss of bowhunting opportunity and seasons as they stand now. I think Alberta will be a hard sell for crossbows as allowing them at 3D etc would be percieved as the thin edge of the wedge.


I love the ability to bow hunt mule deer, moose and elk every year. Alberta is one of the few places with such a diversity of wildlife. Management strategies for Alberta are therfor much different than most other provinces. Where whitetails could possibly sustain such a change many other species could not.

Xbows are allowed in Alberta during our general seasons, but have not been considered to be archery equipment for the fundamental reason that they are not held with muscle power as defined in the wildlife act.

As too insurance, I am aware that our indoor ranges have been unable to obtain adequate insurance (beyond FCA) from thier private providers due to the ability of a xbow to be left cocked, even though they sell them.


Kevin Brayford

Hey Sean good to hear from you say hi to Fiona. Merry Christmas

[russ]

As for the insurance issue it is a non issue since we have the same carrier in Ontario and they have no problem with them here.

?? That doesn't match the information that I've been given.

[Sean]

Hey Kev Merry Christmas to you as well hope you got everthing you wanted:beer:

I just got on here a while ago to check on the FCA stuff, I was suprised to see this still up. Yuo correctly pointed out that game management is the main dictator to what is used and how long. I know Alberta has had some issues with keeping good records so it would make sence to put a hold on what is there until firm numbers are available. Here in Ontario numbers are kept on deer moose bear primarly and with close quarter hunting increasing the gun season wasn't viable so adding the x-bows into the archery season and making a longe season makes sence...that was 30 years ago. X-bows have had the worst rep ever and the most missinformation put out. They are about as accuate as a BH unlimited guy and the hunting distance is the same, simple math shows that. When I brought X-bows into the OAA I was told everything under the sun on what would happen, well it tunred out to be a whole lot of talk with nothing to back it up, X-bows are the biggest non issue I have seen in nearly 40 years of shooting archery

Russ..The insurance company uses the same injury ratio that any other company uses. This is why our insurance is so low. The ratio falls under edge weapons meaning it is so low that archery actually isn't on its own but included with knives etc just to get an injury ratio. All this includes x-bows and ALWAYS has since the first ratio book the insurance company showed me in 85. So if you think you are getting a discount for excluding x-bows guess again.

[HOYTarcher]

The problem arises in that harvest levels are being met for many species in Alberta(Antlered MD, Antlered Moose, Antlered Elk, Sheep, Antelope). In some areas bowhunters have even exceded set harvest levels, as a result we have seen reduced season dates and even the loss of the archery pre-season. Increasing bowhunter numbers and thus harvest levels would mean this would continue in zones where we are meeting harvest quotas.

If we were only dealing with whitetails and bears where we currently do not reach harvest goals it could well be a non-issue.

[Mikey]

Sean ...correct me if I am wrong .... whitch I am sure you will ... at Nationals this last year in Ontario ... there was 27 crossbows .... of those 27 ... wasnt there 5 mechanical failures (limbs craking, string breaking etc...) I am not 100% on the number but 5 was thrown around the forum world ...if You tell me none I will call you a Liar .... but lets go with 5 ... Thats 18% ... Thats alot in grand scheme of things huh?.... that has some potential for some pain ...at anyrate

X-bow has zero to do with Archery ... so tell me how can you justify that the federation of Canadian Archers should let x-bows into their club. Oh yea ... I beleive your arguement was the IBO did it so why not the FCA .... well the IBO is a bowhunting org first and foremost...Not an Archery org... so now we got that straight ...and yes their is a differance (for the benifit of our audiance) ... so tell me again why the FCA should allow Crossbow divions???

I would like to see a 90m Round of crossbows ... would be cool I think ... But not part of the Federation of Canadian Archers

[DsrtRat]

This is what I don't get. Mikey says it woul dbe cool to see a 90m crossbow round. Then he adds, 'but not as aprt of the FCA". WHy the hell not? How does a crossbow being on the same property as you affect your sport? Really? Is it arrogance or Ignorance? I can understand (somewhat) the concern in Alberta for hunting because of low game numbers but to try and keep them out of the FCA makes no sense at all. Yes there were a couple of bows at the shoot last year that had limb problems. Was anyone hurt? No, because if you follow proper safety rules, the chances are greatly decreased.

You guys are funn! So afraid over nothing. Who cares if they had X-bows in the FCA. No one is going to make you shoot one. You can't be forced to shoot with them so what is the problem? There is more rumour about crossbows than there was about weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. Don't fall for it!

[Mikey]

ok first off ... lemme correct some numbers ... there were at least 2 blown up x-bows at Nats in aug ....thats still 7% ....

Rat ... Prove to me how shooting a Crossbow is archery ... Not hunting .... but archery and then go on to explain how a cross bower can be called an archer and then for part c of the question ... explain why Crossbows should have their own division in the Federation of Canadian Archers?

Thank you I expect the assignment to be turned in by the end of the week ;)

Cockin(for lack of better term) a x-bow and shooting it is totally differant skill requirement than a long, recurve or compound bow (the latter 3 use all similar tecnique) ....

I want the question ansered ... nobody has given me an anser ... the FCA is an archery org .... Not a hunting org ... so any referal to hunting numbers etc... is not a valid point when it comes to the FCA ....

[Sean]

Sean ...correct me if I am wrong .... whitch I am sure you will ... at Nationals this last year in Ontario ... there was 27 crossbows .... of those 27 ... wasnt there 5 mechanical failures (limbs craking, string breaking etc...) I am not 100% on the number but 5 was thrown around the forum world ...if You tell me none I will call you a Liar .... but lets go with 5 ... Thats 18% ... Thats alot in grand scheme of things huh?.... that has some potential for some pain ...at anyrate

X-bow has zero to do with Archery ... so tell me how can you justify that the federation of Canadian Archers should let x-bows into their club. Oh yea ... I beleive your arguement was the IBO did it so why not the FCA .... well the IBO is a bowhunting org first and foremost...Not an Archery org... so now we got that straight ...and yes their is a differance (for the benifit of our audiance) ... so tell me again why the FCA should allow Crossbow divions???

I would like to see a 90m Round of crossbows ... would be cool I think ... But not part of the Federation of Canadian Archers

Alot of leaping and bounding going on here I see, well I shot the x-bow division and I personaly saw 3 failures, one limb tip broke one dry fire and a cocking device, all repaired with ZERO injuries, those are the 3 that I saw don't know about the rest.

If you belive that crossbow have no relation to other forms of archery that your problem not mine can't help you with that.

And just so we are clear I have made ZERO proposals to have the FCA adopt crossbows, the reason for even mentioning IBO was that at our AGM when we moved to adopt FCA rules for all aspects, we had to add the portion about crossbows, we would have adopted IBO rules for 3-D but that would have made us much different than what the FCA has, so we adopted FCA3-D and added crossbows.

and 3 fitas last year for me with a crossbow under fita timing

1362
1367
1366

you have stated your stance which is fine but tell me why I would waste my time trying to convince you otherwise?????

[Sean]

ok first off ... lemme correct some numbers ... there were at least 2 blown up x-bows at Nats in aug ....thats still 7% ....

Rat ... Prove to me how shooting a Crossbow is archery ... Not hunting .... but archery and then go on to explain how a cross bower can be called an archer and then for part c of the question ... explain why Crossbows should have their own division in the Federation of Canadian Archers?

Thank you I expect the assignment to be turned in by the end of the week ;)

Cockin(for lack of better term) a x-bow and shooting it is totally differant skill requirement than a long, recurve or compound bow (the latter 3 use all similar tecnique) ....

I want the question ansered ... nobody has given me an anser ... the FCA is an archery org .... Not a hunting org ... so any referal to hunting numbers etc... is not a valid point when it comes to the FCA ....



just replace all you aguments with compound instead of crossbow and you answer your own questions

[Mikey]

ya sean i can see having an intelligent conversation with you is fruitless
If you cant see the similarities between a recurve and a compound bow and the disimilarites with a cross bow I cant figger out how you got past level 1 tech ..much less getting level 2 certification in the 3M national Coaching Certification program ... first off Compound bow is drawn and held with personal muscular power ... a Cross bow is not held with muscular power.
yes a compound has a let off due to its cam design but is not locked in place by a mechanical means (usaully)

the act of shooting a cross bow is more like the act of shooting a Rifle than it is of a compound, Recurve or long bow by means of holding the stock to your shoulder and looking down an aiming device(scope...Tang site etc...) I am not opposed to a Cross bow target association of Canada ... I am opposed to Cross bows being included under the FCA umbrella ...because Crossbows are not archery ...

[Sean]

ya sean i can see having an intelligent conversation with you is fruitless

Yuor first post told me the same thing of you


If you cant see the similarities between a recurve and a compound bow and the disimilarites with a cross bow I cant figger out how you got past level 1 tech ..much less getting level 2 certification in the 3M national Coaching Certification program ... first off Compound bow is drawn and held with personal muscular power ... a Cross bow is not held with muscular power.

Tell that to your grade 6 physics teacher


yes a compound has a let off due to its cam design but is not locked in place by a mechanical means (usaully)

the act of shooting a cross bow is more like the act of shooting a Rifle than it is of a compound, Recurve or long bow by means of holding the stock to your shoulder and looking down an aiming device(scope...Tang site etc...) I am not opposed to a Cross bow target association of Canada ... I am opposed to Cross bows being included under the FCA umbrella ...because Crossbows are not archery ... keep telling your self the sky is green maybe it will change

[Mikey]

LMAO

ok then ..show me a cross bow that is held at "full draw" (I use that term loosly)with muscular power and not mechanical means

oh and isnt the sky green in the GTA allready?

[DsrtRat]

Nice argument Mikey but again, they seem to be based on personal opinion and emotion, not fact. Real nice touch taking personal shots at Sean.

OK, smartass, you tell me how a crossbow is not a part of archery. Here are some definitions for you.

ar·cher
Pronunciation: \ˈär-chər\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Late Latin arcarius, alteration of arcuarius, from arcuarius of a bow, from Latin arcus bow — more at arrow
Date: 14th century
1: a person who uses a bow and arrow"


The definition of a bowman is in fact an archer. No where does it define that the bow has to be stood vertically. Here is the definition of a bow. "1 a: something bent into a simple curve or 2: a weapon that is made of a strip of flexible material (as wood) with a cord connecting the two ends and holding the strip bent and that is used to propel an arrow

The definition of an arrow is this :1: a missile shot from a bow and usually having a slender shaft, a pointed head, and feathers at the butt

Now unless you guys out west are seeing some radically different crossbows than us, I would argue that a crossbow is technically something bent into a simple curve and is flexible with cord attached to two ends. Correct me if I am wrong, but do the bullets that are fired from a crossbow sound strangely like the definition of an arrow? No where does the term "bow" specifically state that the bow must be held back with muscles nor does it state that it must be vertical.

Again, you are simply ****ing and moaning over your emotional hang-up over crossbows. Take a Midol and post your reply tomorow. Now you explain to me why they shouldn't have their own division. Do recurves compete in the same division as compounds? No. So why shouldn't crossbows be allowed their own division? Don't give me your Rosie O'Donnel emotional break-down response, give me some facts. Prove to me that a crossbow is not archery equipment.

I will expect your response to be factual and not emotional dribble like you have provided to this point.

OUT!

[Sean]

LMAO

ok then ..show me a cross bow that is held at "full draw" (I use that term loosly)with muscular power and not mechanical means

you said held now you say held at full draw, well I can do both

oh and isnt the sky green in the GTA allready?

dont' know GTA is 4 hrs away

[DsrtRat]

Here is an Encyclopedic description of a bow and arrow just in case you try and say that when they discuss a bowmen, they mean vertical bow and arrow only. Note that the crossbow is included in this.



Just because you chose to deny the fact that a crossbow is not a piece of archery equipment does not make it right. For some reason the westerners have followed the US mind set that a crossbow is a gun and not archery equipment. Again, based on personal opinion.




"bow and arrow

weapon consisting of two parts; the bow is made of a strip of flexible material, such as wood, with a cord linking the two ends of the strip to form a tension from which is propelled the arrow; the arrow is a straight shaft with a sharp point on one end and usually with feathers attached to the other end.

The use of the bow and arrow for hunting and for war dates back to the Paleolithic period in Africa, Asia, and Europe. It was widely used in ancient Egypt, Mesopotamia, Persia, the Americas, and Europe until the introduction of gunpowder. Arrowheads were first made of burnt wood, then stone or bone, and then metals. Various woods and bones were used for the bow itself. However, it was not a powerful weapon until the invention of the compound, or composite, bow around 1500 on the steppes of Central Asia. A composite bow is made of various materials (wood, horn, sinew) glued together so as to increase their natural strength and elasticity. Bows and arrows were among the dominant weapons used by Assyrian chariots, Parthian cavalry, Mongol horsemen, and English longbowmen. At other times they have been used more as auxiliary weapons for massed infantry or cavalry.

The crossbow, although known in Roman times, was not widely used in Europe until the Middle Ages. In China, however, where it developed at the same time, the crossbow revolutionized warfare. A crossbow is a bow set on a stock. It fires missiles propelled by mechanical energy and released by a trigger. It could be more powerful than the ordinary bow and could fire arrows, darts, or stones. It was, however, slower to fire than the longbow and almost as difficult to wield; even the arbalest, a later crossbow, was clumsy and slow. By the end of the 13th cent. use of the crossbow had declined. At the battle of Crécy (1346) English longbowmen, firing from fixed positions, proved far more efficient than Genoese crossbowmen fighting for the French.

The longbow, which was in use in Wales in the 12th cent. became prominent in the Welsh Wars of Edward I in the late 13th cent. For the rest of that century, the English emphasized skill with the longbow; it was inexpensive, mobile, and easily adapted to a peasant army. Only in England did the longbow survive the introduction of gunpowder; it was superseded gradually by firearms. It was a powerful weapon, but it took great strength to pull and years of practice to master. The Chinese also developed a longbow, which proved much less effective than the English variety. The Asian bow, designed for use on horseback, was shorter and lighter than the English longbow and could be more rapidly fired. The Chinese later developed the repeating crossbow, an ingenious weapon that proved ineffective against repeating rifles in the First Sino-Japanese War.

Since bows and arrows are relatively easy to make and can produce a rapid rate of fire, they were used in warfare long after gunpowder was introduced, for primitive firearms required much time to load, were hard to manufacture, and often failed. In Japan and North America archery was very important culturally as well as militarily. See archery; hunting. "

Check-Mate!!!

[Mikey]

Nice argument Mikey but again, they seem to be based on personal opinion and emotion, not fact. Real nice touch taking personal shots at Sean.

OK, smartass, you tell me how a crossbow is not a part of archery. Here are some definitions for you.

ar·cher
Pronunciation: \ˈär-chər\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Late Latin arcarius, alteration of arcuarius, from arcuarius of a bow, from Latin arcus bow — more at arrow
Date: 14th century
1: a person who uses a bow and arrow"


The definition of a bowman is in fact an archer. No where does it define that the bow has to be stood vertically. Here is the definition of a bow. "1 a: something bent into a simple curve or 2: a weapon that is made of a strip of flexible material (as wood) with a cord connecting the two ends and holding the strip bent and that is used to propel an arrow

The definition of an arrow is this :1: a missile shot from a bow and usually having a slender shaft, a pointed head, and feathers at the butt

Now unless you guys out west are seeing some radically different crossbows than us, I would argue that a crossbow is technically something bent into a simple curve and is flexible with cord attached to two ends. Correct me if I am wrong, but do the bullets that are fired from a crossbow sound strangely like the definition of an arrow? No where does the term "bow" specifically state that the bow must be held back with muscles nor does it state that it must be vertical.

Again, you are simply ****ing and moaning over your emotional hang-up over crossbows. Take a Midol and post your reply tomorow. Now you explain to me why they shouldn't have their own division. Do recurves compete in the same division as compounds? No. So why shouldn't crossbows be allowed their own division? Don't give me your Rosie O'Donnel emotional break-down response, give me some facts. Prove to me that a crossbow is not archery equipment.

I will expect your response to be factual and not emotional dribble like you have provided to this point.

OUT!

ok Fair enuf ... and for the record I hate Rosie ... I am more a Jerry Springer/ Steve Wilkos kinda guy

But as i have stated I have nothing against Crossbows
and you are correct in the fact that a crossbow is infact a bow mounted on a stock ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossbow
there is infact the wikipedia article

I like this part the best tho ...espcially the bolded portion ...thats one of my main reasons for not liking them in an archery organisation
Comparison to regular bows
With a crossbow, archers could release a draw force far in excess of what they could have handled with a bow. Moreover, crossbows could be kept cocked and ready to shoot for some time with little effort, allowing crossbowmen to aim better. The disadvantage is the greater weight and clumsiness compared to a bow, as well as the slower rate of fire and the lower efficiency of the acceleration system.

here is the wiki article on Bows (as a weapon)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bow_%28weapon%29

and here is the article on archery ....Yes is does mention the cross bow ...but take great notice to the technique of archery
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archery

Thats where I get my info from ...
a cross bow may be infact technically a Bow ...... but the act of shooting it is not archery

[Mikey]

oh yea ... I particularily like this
crossbow is a variation on the general bow design. Instead of the limbs being held vertically, they are mounted horizontally on a stock much like that of a firearm. The limb design can either be compound or a recurve but the basic concept of shooting is the same. The string is pulled back either manually or with a windlass and locked into place. The string remains in this locked position, held solely through mechanical means until the energy stored in its limbs is released by a trigger mechanism, which launches the loaded arrow. The energy stored in the shortened limbs is comparable to the longbow but packed into a smaller design that is also much easier to aim. Crossbows shoot quarrels or bolts, which are shorter arrows than those usual for bows.

[DsrtRat]

I have never denied the fact that you have a right to an opinion on crossbows. It matters not to me what emotions you have regarding them. You did however ask me to show you what they have to do with archery and why the FCA should consider having them as a division.

I believe I did that and used facts to back it up. You might not want to believe that a crossbow is archery equipment but again, that is your opinion and not fact. The method of shooting a crossbow makes it different but does not disqualify it as archery equipment. Here is a quote from your last post.
I like this part the best tho ...espcially the bolded portion ...thats one of my main reasons for not liking them in an archery organisation

Quote:
Comparison to regular bows
With a crossbow, archers could release a draw force far in excess of what they could have handled with a bow. Moreover, crossbows could be kept cocked and ready to shoot for some time with little effort, allowing crossbowmen to aim better. The disadvantage is the greater weight and clumsiness compared to a bow, as well as the slower rate of fire and the lower efficiency of the acceleration system

Again, you are stating your opinion as to not liking them in an archery organization. Take a look at the first line of the comparison you highlighted. It says "With a crossbow, archers could release..." . Notice the term used to describe the crossbowman? "ARCHERS"!!! That is from your text, not mine.

Now that we have established that a crossbow is in fact archery equipment, let's get to the FCA part. Unless I am mistaken, the FCA is our federal body of archery and not the body of the western provinces. Your provincial govt's may not allow hunting in archery season with a crossbow but like you mentioned above, we are not talking about hunting now are we. So if the FCA is governing all of Canadian archery and a crossbow is in fact archery equipment, why shouldn't they have a division of their own? Just because there is a group of people that do not like them for personal reasons, does not qualify as a reason to not have them. Should we ban recurves if a group from an eastern province suddenly decides they don't want them in the FCA? How UN-Canadian is that?

If you don't like them, don't shoot them. To be honest with you, I shoot compound almost exclusively in competition. I have however shot at a ton of tournaments that had crossbows and believe me, they are a non issue. The poeple shooting them are as kind and curteous as any of the vertical shooters. There is no more risk of getting hit by a bolt than there is an arrow. If the shooter obeys the shooting rules, there is no more chance of being hit by an equipment failure than there is with a compound. If the shooter is at the stake and everyone is behind said shooter, any debris from a possible blowup goes down range. And to be honest, they don't literally blow up. It is sually a splintered limb that people have coined the phrase "blow-up". In tradition with our post, maybe you could show me some facts or reports of people being injured by a crossbow vs compound at an event.

[russ]

I'm confused.

Dsrtrat you use an encyclopedia definition and declare check mate, as in game, set, match argument over. However when your definition is countered with further encyclopedic information you refute it as an opinion? I'm sorry but it would appear that you are cherry picking information to suit your argument.

[DsrtRat]

I'm confused.

Dsrtrat you use an encyclopedia definition and declare check mate, as in game, set, match argument over. However when your definition is countered with further encyclopedic information you refute it as an opinion? I'm sorry but it would appear that you are cherry picking information to suit your argument.

Yaaawn. This is becoming such a bore. Russ where did he counter my argument? The quote he provided has the dam encyclopedia calling crossbowmen "archers" FFS. Yes, he did provide a link about archery and I did read the part about technique. So what!? They describe one technique of drawing a bow. Big "F"ing deal!!! Does that mean that every other type of archery is not archery if it does not fall under that specific technique of drawing the bow that they used in their example? Show me in that paragraph where they say that any bow drawn differently is not archery equipment. Show me that russ.

The whole article talks about archery and includes crossbows through out it. Remembering that this article is about "ARCHERY", go to the list of equipment. Look closely ath the 6th one from the top, "CROSSBOW"!!! Based on your interpretation of this one paragraph, any disabled archer without 2 hands would not be allowed in the FCA either because they wouldn't be drawing using their "string hand" or holding the bow with their "bow hand", thus excluding them from being archers.

Talk about cherry picking. The article is about archery. In that arcticle they discuss crossbows, list them as archery equipment and call crossbowmen "archers". Now you are going to take a non specific paragraph that describes one techinque that can be used to draw a bow and say that all other forms of archery don't count because this paragraph overrides the whole article? PUUULEASE!!!!!! The definition of an archer is "a person who uses a bow and arrow". This article clearly states that a crossbow is a bow laid on its side. Yes it works differently than a compound or a recurve bow but is none the less a BOW. Furthermore, the bolt is described as a shorter arrow. Under the definition of an archer, a crossbowman fits. The definition does not specify the orientation of the bow, it's firing mechanism or a specific length of arrows.

It would not matter what I put on there russ. All you guys have your minds made up and you are not going to accept a crossbow as archery equipment regardless of what the dictionary, encyclopedia, the Prime Minsiter, the Pope or if God himself reached down from the heavens and said it iwas so. You asked for facts. You got em! The enclcopedia (that Mikey provided I might add) stated clearly that under archery, a crossbow is listed as equipment. If you can deny that the crossbow is listed under equipment and that the crossbowman is called an archer when it is right there in black and white, then there is no point continuing this ridiculous argument with you.

Again, "CHECK-MATE"!!!! Mikey asked me to provide him proof that a crossbow was archey equipment and I did that. We are not talking about hunting or personal opinion. I was asked to leave those out and find facts. It is there in black in white!!! Just because the encyclopedia did not cover every possible way to draw archery equipment does not mean the rest of the article is not valid, especially the part where the crossbow is in the equipment list or where the specific information about the crossbow describes it as a bow that shoots arrows. That description of it being a bow and firing arrows falls directly under the umbrella of "archer" according to the websters dictionary's description of an archer.

How much more obvious does it need to be for you russ? Should I write in crayon next or type real slow so you can keep up? Mikey at least found some interesting information about archery. Unfortunately, in this case, it is his opinion and not fact that are against crossbows being archery equipment. He may not like the way a crossbow is drawn and held vs a vertical bow but the reality is, by the definitions we saw tonight, the x-bow is included in the archer category.

[DsrtRat]

I am going to bed but I can't wait to get up and continue this stimulating debate:throwup:

Like I said, you guys have made up your minds and there is probably no changing it. The definition and encylopedic descriptions of a crossbow clearly include it as a form of archery. If you guys want to run around with your weapons of mass destruction attitudes, fill your boots!

[russ]

I am going to bed but I can't wait to get up and continue this stimulating debate:throwup:

Like I said, you guys have made up your minds and there is probably no changing it. The definition and encylopedic descriptions of a crossbow clearly include it as a form of archery. If you guys want to run around with your weapons of mass destruction attitudes, fill your boots!

Interestingly, I suspect that your mind is made up too.

[Sean]

I think it is more of crossbow overload, you see we in Ontario went through this stuff 30+ years ago for bowhunting,the "EXPERTS" said the sky would fall, deer/moose/bear would become extinct in 5 years and they were to powerfull and deadly accurate to be even consisdered hunting weapons......well still waiting, fast forward to early 90's x-bows have been at local tournaments for years now and upon finding out that the Federal government had placed x-bows as archery equipment and thus the insurance companies did as well for ratings. I as OAA President felt that it was prudent to bring them under the OAA wing and establish some written saftey guidlines after all if the insurance company viewed them as archery it wouldn't be in our interest to just ignore them and still have them affect archery's rating.
Once agian the "EXPERTS" came out claiming the sky would fall nobody would shoot with them and the OAA would fold....still waiting... When in fact participation went up, more and more came out to play, targets lasted just aslong as before and many saw the devil of archery(x-bows) as just a dud. The problem lies in the fact that when emotion is used to make decisions the results are always bad, everyone can have an opinion rational or not but when a person believes emotional arguments are equal to basic math and physics you will alway end up with a name calling agument that is of little benifite.

When I was at the FCA 3-D's I was approched by a fellow that was clearly agianst them being there ,his biggest complain was that when cocked you had to shoot it, I asked who told him that he said it was common knowledge, I then proceded to cock and un cock the x-bow right infront of him. Did it change his mind, I doubt it but it certainly made him even more angry.

[Travski]

Yaaawn. This is becoming such a bore. Russ where did he counter my argument? The quote he provided has the dam encyclopedia calling crossbowmen "archers" FFS. Yes, he did provide a link about archery and I did read the part about technique. So what!? They describe one technique of drawing a bow. Big "F"ing deal!!! Does that mean that every other type of archery is not archery if it does not fall under that specific technique of drawing the bow that they used in their example? Show me in that paragraph where they say that any bow drawn differently is not archery equipment. Show me that russ.

The whole article talks about archery and includes crossbows through out it. Remembering that this article is about "ARCHERY", go to the list of equipment. Look closely ath the 6th one from the top, "CROSSBOW"!!! Based on your interpretation of this one paragraph, any disabled archer without 2 hands would not be allowed in the FCA either because they wouldn't be drawing using their "string hand" or holding the bow with their "bow hand", thus excluding them from being archers.

Talk about cherry picking. The article is about archery. In that arcticle they discuss crossbows, list them as archery equipment and call crossbowmen "archers". Now you are going to take a non specific paragraph that describes one techinque that can be used to draw a bow and say that all other forms of archery don't count because this paragraph overrides the whole article? PUUULEASE!!!!!! The definition of an archer is "a person who uses a bow and arrow". This article clearly states that a crossbow is a bow laid on its side. Yes it works differently than a compound or a recurve bow but is none the less a BOW. Furthermore, the bolt is described as a shorter arrow. Under the definition of an archer, a crossbowman fits. The definition does not specify the orientation of the bow, it's firing mechanism or a specific length of arrows.

It would not matter what I put on there russ. All you guys have your minds made up and you are not going to accept a crossbow as archery equipment regardless of what the dictionary, encyclopedia, the Prime Minsiter, the Pope or if God himself reached down from the heavens and said it iwas so. You asked for facts. You got em! The enclcopedia (that Mikey provided I might add) stated clearly that under archery, a crossbow is listed as equipment. If you can deny that the crossbow is listed under equipment and that the crossbowman is called an archer when it is right there in black and white, then there is no point continuing this ridiculous argument with you.

Again, "CHECK-MATE"!!!! Mikey asked me to provide him proof that a crossbow was archey equipment and I did that. We are not talking about hunting or personal opinion. I was asked to leave those out and find facts. It is there in black in white!!! Just because the encyclopedia did not cover every possible way to draw archery equipment does not mean the rest of the article is not valid, especially the part where the crossbow is in the equipment list or where the specific information about the crossbow describes it as a bow that shoots arrows. That description of it being a bow and firing arrows falls directly under the umbrella of "archer" according to the websters dictionary's description of an archer.

How much more obvious does it need to be for you russ? Should I write in crayon next or type real slow so you can keep up? Mikey at least found some interesting information about archery. Unfortunately, in this case, it is his opinion and not fact that are against crossbows being archery equipment. He may not like the way a crossbow is drawn and held vs a vertical bow but the reality is, by the definitions we saw tonight, the x-bow is included in the archer category.

I dont think that we need to be getting rude and insinuating people are dumb or retarded because they dont agree with you DSRTRAT.

I personally could care less if you want to come out and shoot your crossbow against or with me the more the merrier in my opinion. I have shot them and dont like them if it is going to make so we get more shooters to the line at a tourney great, like i said the more the merrier.

I just got one question for everyone when did this become a hunting issue? I thought this was about tourney shooting not hunting. Each province has their rules that they see fit for themselves. Just because the province sees fit for them dont make it written in stone. Look what our GREAT LEADERS have done with GUN REGISTRY it is a bunch of crap, just because the leaders want it does not make it proper. Times are Changeing. Things are changing, wether you like it or not we need to stick together to promote this sport not ***** and Belly ache about things. I would think that we as Adults should be able to accept change. It happens everyday in everyones lives, not much we can do about some of it but some of this we can.

I can see why people dont want the crossbows allowed into archery tourneys
1 easier to aim
2 no muscle power used to hold string back
3 take up a little more room on the line (big deal) some of us guys are as wide across the shoulders as the bows are.

These are a couple reasons I hear from you all, Who cares they will be shooting in their own class not competeing with compound bows, so really what does it matter.

And besides it is a Crossbow

[DsrtRat]

Yes, my mind is made up. That is my opinion and I have a right to that opinion. If I say the sky is green, that is in my opinion even though the rest of the world knows that on a cloudless day with sufficent sun light, the sky is indeed a shade of blue. I have never denied anyone on this board the right to have a personal opinion. Mikey however was not looking for opinion or emotional response to a piece of archery equipment. He challenged me to find something to back up the use of the term "archer" when refering to crossbows. That proof was found in the dictionary and encyclopedia. Black and white.

Regardless of what my opinion is and what Mikey's opinion is, the facts are that a crossbow, according to the english definition, is indeed archery equipment.

I doubt that this exercise in internet banter will make one bit of difference with the FCA and to be quite honest, I really could care less. I live in Ontario where I can choose to hunt with any type of bow for 3 months of the season. I can got to a local tourney's and shoot a crossbow or shoot along side a crossbow shooter. It doesn't bother me in the least. If the FCA chooses to not include crossbows in any of it's events, then that is the FCA's choice.

If asked, Mikey will more than likely say that he would not like to see crossbows allowed into the FCA. That is his opinion and he has every right to it. On the other hand, he would have a hard time making the argument that a crossbow is not archey equipment if the argument was based on facts and not personal bias or opinion.

Russ, from here on it you can say you don't like crossbows and you can say they are not acrhery equipment. That will be taken as OPINION only and will be considered a part of your little world and not ours. I believe it was Mikey that questioned another poster's interpretation of the colour of the sky in his area. Well, since all the posts you have made in this thread are based on your emotional response to the issue, readers might want to know what colouyr the sky is where you are.

[DsrtRat]

I agree with Travski. Everyone is having a fit about the crossbow as though vertical archers would have to compete against them.

I have said right form my 1st post on this issue that we need to stick togther as archers and ot have all this he-said she-said bull because one day, we are going to have to fight to keep our sport and divided we will fall.

[Mikey]

Rat ... I can tell that your relitivly intelligent ...and we can banter back and forth untill the cows come home .... Sometime in May 'round these parts.... your arguements are no more sound to allow the X-bows into the FCA than mine are to leave them out ......

The International Archery Federation does not reconize a cross bow as Archery equipment...not even as part of the 3D rules ...and we all "know" that 3D is hunting practice.:rolleyes:
That would be FITA by the way ......

The International Bowhunters Organization Does reconize crossbows as archery equipment ...In my opinion ...this is only my opinion ... I admit ...this is my opinion ..are you ready for it ....to Pad their numbers ...which is the exact reason why the BC bowhunters association is aligning themselves with Crossbowmen....(by the way thats a fact) and probally why the OAA did the same thing 30 years ago (again my opinion... but I will bet a paycheck thats not far from the truth)


So...... If FITA being the worlds governing body of our sport of archery doesnt reconize a crossbow division (and also a well known fact is that Crossbow Target associations are huge in europeon markets but not as part of FITA) do you think it would be smart for the Cdn body (who already is a laughing stock in the eyes of the world) to become more American(ized) because the IBO is an American association .... (if you have been to the last 10 IBO "World" Championships you have only visited 1 country...and untill last years one location in that country).

It is of my opinion ...get that ... my opinion for the FCA to gain more credibility worldwide with respect to the sport of target archery.... it would be better served to follow FITAs ideals opposed to the IBOs.

Now If the FCA wants to get into the the Bowhunting advocacy and such that the IBO has done ... then S#!t or get off the pot...but the FCA knows that is a crap sammich that they dont want to take a bite out of (the last part is my opinion) .... are you following me Rat ...
does that actually make sense to you ..?

[DsrtRat]

To be honest, I don't really care what the FCA rules because I don't shoot crossbow in tournaments. My comments were simply saying that having a crossbow at a tournament (mainly 3D) is not a big issue like some seem to think it is. The world did not implode last summer, the tournament went off just like every other year.

If the goal of the FCA is to "fit in" amongst the world's archery organizations, then I guess they better avoid crossbows. I have no opinion on wether that is the correct thing to or not because I have not followed the FCA or know what it's goals are. If world acceptance is what they seek, then they should just fall under the FITA envelope and be done with it. I suspect there is more to it than that but who knows. I did not realize that the FCA has made us the laughing stock of the world archery community. How hard were they laughing last summer in Germany?

Just to play devils advocate, what do you honestly think would happen to the FCA in the eyes of the world if they accepted crossbows? Would FCA archers (vertical) be disqualified from world tournaments? Would there be a quiet snicker every time a Canadian archer stepped on to the line? Would Canada not be allowed to host a world event? When was the last time the FCA held a world event? Realistically, who would care? I am honestly interested in knowing how it all works. Is the FCA overseen by FITA? Does FITA have any influence on the FCA or is just a worry that we may get teased more by the world? Hey, we are Canadians. We get teased all the time unless we are talking about World Junior Hockey and the Cdn Forces Snowbirds ( they get respect from all the international teams)!!!

hey, can you say the part about me being intelligent again, my wife didn't hear ya ! LOL

[Mikey]

personally I dont care one way or the other ...But it is of my opinion (theres that damned word again) if the FCA would like to represent its country in the sport of Target Archery ...then it should follow FITAs example(target archerys world body).

Unfourtunatly the Hunting aspect of the sport of archery is a totally differant animal .....

that all said .... I also personally dont beleive that a national sanctioning body such as the FCA can endorse the use of a peice of sporting equipment, weapon, whatever that is not legal to own let alone use in all 10 provinces and 3 territories of this country. (in the other thread its mentioned that the ownership of crossbows is illegal in Nova Scotia... I wasnt aware of that untill I read it)

the FCA allows host clubs of their events ... Liberties ... such as the X-bow division at 3d nats last year .... but really the FCA is a joke ..... they dont even enforce their own rules ex: Nationals again a 3 course set up when it staes clearly a 4 course set up in their own rulebook .....now that said rumour is the land dictated a 3 course layout ... I imagine that was neglected to be mentioned in the clubs bid to host ...but thats another conversation for another thread ...another liberty ???

meh ... that all said as far as the athletes from Canada ...second to none in my opinion....I assume thats what you are alluding to when you mentioned Germany ..... but ask yourself ...hell ask them ... how much help did they get from the FCA to get there .... Not alot ...some I admit ....they all got to that level on their their own ...the FCA actually does very little for its athletes and members (at least in the past ... I know people are there now triing to change that) ... its that lack of ...concern for lack of better word... that has made the FCA the laughing stock it is in the eyes of the Euros ...the Chinesse ... Koreans. If the FCA was half as good to its athletes as the Korean org is to its atheletes ...Foghorns 1400 scores would be commonplace for alot of shooters ... not just once in a while and worthy of a "1400" thread over on AT. As much natural talent there is in this country such as Dietmar (I use that name cause hes known to you...) Canada would be the WJHC team of archery ... riding a 20 game tournament winning streak.

[DsrtRat]

Saddly, all sports in this country are under supported. Our government agencies are too busy focusing on giving crack heads clean needles instead of promoting sports for youngsters and helpin gthem along the way... but that is another story.

[Mikey]

Saddly, all sports in this country are under supported. Our government agencies are too busy focusing on giving crack heads clean needles instead of promoting sports for youngsters and helpin gthem along the way... but that is another story.

At least we agree on something

[Sean]

wow how little you actually know on the workings of the FCA and other organisations. The FCA actually holds 2 World archery affiliations Fita and IFAA and BOTH have a bowhunting side to them. Canada is certainly not the laughing stock as you claim, the simple reality is that Canada is a capitalistic country the others you mentioned are not so more resourses are put into buying medals, basicaly meaning that what is not in the Olympics isn't funded. If you want that kind of funding you would be looking at a tax rate close to 75%. The sport funding level we have isn't much and that is dictated buy the Country itself not the FCA. This is the main reason for colaboration with like entities. Do you think the FCA would exsist if they were recurve only

[Mikey]

fiscal support is not the only type of support ....
Jamaica has a bobsled team .....

and your telling me that Sweden is a comunist country .... England ... Austrailia ...Denmark????
F@@k I never knew that ....

and actually I beleive the FCA would be better equiped and funded if they were Olympic recurve only ....

Beleive me Sean I have been around the block a time or two when it comes to National org support and federal funding in another sport and have being to international events and olympic class events ...trust me trooper .. I know whats involved

[Sean]

fiscal support is not the only type of support ....
Jamaica has a bobsled team .....

and your telling me that Sweden is a comunist country .... England ... Austrailia ...Denmark????
F@@k I never knew that ....


not communist....Socalist


and actually I beleive the FCA would be better equiped and funded if they were Olympic recurve only ....


can guarentee there wouldn't be one at all



Beleive me Sean I have been around the block a time or two when it comes to National org support and federal funding in another sport and have being to international events and olympic class events ...trust me trooper .. I know whats involved

[russ]

Sean,

Please break out your comments. It looks like Mikey is making statements when in fact your are.

[Sean]

ya tried to use a different colour but didn't work.